Weathering Change: Wisdom from Seasoned Worship Leaders

Ever feel like ministry is one transition after another? In this soul-stirring conversation, four worship ministry veterans with decades of experience share their hard-earned wisdom about navigating change while staying anchored in God's presence.

Mark Harris (Gateway Church), Jon Larson (Church of the Highlands), Andy Chrisman (Church on the Move), and Michael Neale (Champion Forest) gather around The Worship Table to vulnerably discuss how they've weathered significant ministry transitions. From church changes to leadership restructuring to personal role shifts, these worship leaders reveal the spiritual practices that have sustained them through uncertainty.

"Hold on loosely, but don't let go," advises Harris, emphasizing the delicate balance between faithful stewardship and recognizing God's ultimate ownership. The group explores how transitions often reveal our hidden idols – those things we've unknowingly elevated above our devotion to Christ. Through personal stories, including Harris's experience taking daily communion with his wife and Larson's reflection on being a "doorkeeper in God's house," they offer practical wisdom for staying spiritually grounded when everything else is shifting.

What emerges is a profound roadmap for worship leaders facing transitions: maintain daily spiritual disciplines, focus on eternal perspectives, choose joy deliberately, and lean heavily into authentic community. The conversation goes beyond surface-level advice to explore the heart postures that truly matter when navigating change.

Whether you're currently in a transition or preparing for your next one, this wisdom-packed episode offers both practical steps and spiritual insights that will deepen your ministry resilience. Subscribe now to join The Worship Table community and watch for information about upcoming in-person retreats where conversations like this continue.

The Worship Table is a sacred space for worship pastors and creative leaders—a place of rest, renewal, and real connection. Just as the Lord’s Table welcomes all, this Table exists to refresh those who pour out week after week. Through mentorship, shared experiences, and deep community, we invite you to step away from isolation and into a space of belonging, encouragement, and growth. You don’t have to lead alone—there is a place for you here.

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Transcript

Welcome to the Worship Table

Speaker 1 0:09

Well, hey guys, welcome to the Worship Table podcast. Amazing friends here Mark Harris, john Larson, andy Chrisman just legends, brothers, faithful stewards of creative ministry, worship ministry. All the things right so quickly, mark, you're looking after Gateway Worship.

Speaker 2 0:33

Yeah, I'm at Gateway Church Gateway Church Gateway Worship. Been here for 13 years now or so.

Speaker 1 0:38

Yeah, incredible. And John Larson Church of the Highlands yes, Talk about your role, how God's using you right now.

Speaker 3 0:45

Well, I've spent over 20 years as a worship pastor at Highlands and now actually excited to be stepping into the role of a vice president at our ministry training school, Highlands College. I'm just excited about raising up the next generation of not just worship leaders but, pastors and all kinds of leaders for the church, so excited about it.

Speaker 1 1:06

Amazing, amazing and Andy Chrisman.

Speaker 4 1:09

Yep, that's me.

Speaker 1 1:10

Oh my goodness. Radio host, worship pastor, vocal coach. Too much Go down the list, bro, Too many things.

Speaker 4 1:17

Yeah, at my church, my current role as of the taping of this is senior worship pastor in residence, so feel free to unpack all that I love it, I love it. And then, of course, michael Neal. Yes, yeah, yeah. Introduce yourself.

Speaker 1 1:33

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4 1:34

All your accolades.

Speaker 1 1:35

I am pastor of multi-site experiences and creative ministries at Champion Forest in Northwest Houston with Pastor Jarrett Stevens.

Speaker 3 1:43

That's awesome.

Speaker 1 1:43

Love my bro there just having a ball. Yeah, and just these kind of conversations are amazing, and the worship table we've established exists for us to provide a space a safe space for care, community and coaching, and I can't think of three other guys I'd rather have conversations with than these guys right here, and I thought it would be good to just. There's a lot of gray hair represented around me. A lot of white hair, gray hair. I'm holding on to hair.

Speaker 3 2:20

I'm trying to keep what I got.

Speaker 1 2:24

But those represent a lot of life, lived a lot of ministry, traveled a lot of transitions Transitions in life, transitions in ministry, transitions of staff, transitions of pastors, transitions of organizational structures, transition, transition. It doesn't seem like setting up the white picket fence and locking in for 50 years is the thing.

Speaker 1 2:48

It's like no. God keeps drawing us into these moments of transitions, and I've heard it said like the hellos and the goodbyes are the crucial moments. It's like wheels up and wheels down. Flying is one thing, but the wheels up and wheels down. Everybody's paying attention at a different level, and we've all gone through all these different transitions and they're all represented. So I just would love to open that question up. What are some of the things that God's saying to you? Maybe, if you're in a transition or you've just experienced one, what would you say to our worship pastors and creative leaders out there that are experiencing a change on some level? What are you paying attention to? What are you listening to? Let me open the floor.

Speaker 2 3:28

That's a great question.

Speaker 4 3:30

I think we start with you, Mark.

Speaker 2 3:31

Well, I think, yeah, I can start. I know we all have I think we've all like. The funny thing is is, when you talk transitions, we're like oh, we've all been through a lot of that I think it's a 38 special song. It's Hold On Loosely, I like it.

Speaker 2 3:48

But it's just, but don't let go. And it's like I think that that probably would be where I would start just by saying you know, transitions are sometimes very tough. Sometimes it feels great when you're transitioning if you just feel like, okay, I've had enough of this, I'm ready to do something else. But it's difficult because we get our heart attached to things, because we're human and also we're pastors and we love people, and then we get very invested and sometimes when you're transitioning, it's like you mourn leaving the people and you also mourn leaving the investment the people and you also mourn leaving the investment.

Speaker 2 4:27

But it's the thing that I've had to tell myself so many times, even while being here at Gateway, is I have to hold on loosely.

Speaker 2 4:32

I'm never the owner, I'm a steward. Whatever I'm holding right now could be moved out of my hands and I might be, in a month, be holding something else and I have to know that, whatever it is, I just have to steward that well, while I'm holding it. Yeah, because I think the thing sometimes with us is because we're I'm an achiever, I'm an Enneagram three. So I'm like you, give me something, I want to get it done and I want to and there's a little bit of me that kind of thinks my name is Mark, but it's like we have a tendency to want to make our mark. You know, like leave our stamp on something, and it's like, but what if that's not the point? What if the point is let's just serve well what we're holding and steward it well, but never hold it to where we think it's ours, always reminding ourselves that it's God's and it's whether we started it or not. I mean it's just. The reality is it's never ours, it's God's and we are His stewards.

Speaker 4 5:32

So can I just approach the elephant in the room? Yeah, because we are at Gateway right now.

Speaker 2 5:37

Yes.

Speaker 4 5:38

And we're recording in your office here and Gateway's been through a massive transition in the last year. Without going into details, but that's been not like leaving a church and going to another church, or losing your job and having to do something else. This has been a transition of okay, lord, what's next? Like literally having to rethink who you are as a church.

Speaker 2 6:03

Yeah, well, it's really. It's kind of like that's when you ask yourself why am I here, yeah, and why am I serving? Was I serving for a man, or was I serving because it's the kingdom of God and it's the bride of Christ? And so when it's all about people, it's still all about people, yeah. When it's all about people, it's still all about people. It's about loving on them and sharing the love of Christ with them. And whether I'm leading worship or whether I'm leading an event or whether I'm just speaking individually, one-on-one with someone, it's like regardless of what's happening here. I mean the very first weekend after everything happened and we had change going on all around us. The song I was asked to be a part of leading worship that weekend on the platform and the first song that the Holy Spirit just gave me was Turn your Eyes Upon Jesus. And it was just because I felt the Holy Spirit say hey, now is the time, always is the time like to keep your eyes on me.

Speaker 2 7:09

And so I think the thing that has sustained us here is knowing that, regardless of what transitions or change happens, god didn't leave, he's here, and if we continue pastoring and loving on people and just keep our head, you know, and our eyes and our posture like in the right place, then God has a plan. And so, and ultimately, he knows the future, like he knows. He knew this day would come, he knew what's happening would happen. And once again it's like, because during the season there have been so many shifts, people are now holding things that they weren't holding before all of this happened and some of the people that were here, that we love, are no longer here.

Speaker 2 7:55

But you just have to, like I said, you have to kind of hold it loosely and you can't, and then you have to know who you are and what God called you to do.

Speaker 4 8:03

Well, and technically the church doesn't belong to the senior pastor. No, the church belongs to Jesus.

Navigating Ministry Transitions

Speaker 4 8:07

Yeah, and so you have to come to this point. If you do this long enough, you have to come to the realization that and I say this all the time to worship pastors that I talk to and even the staff that I've helped lead over the last 20 years is we may have pulled the trigger on hiring you or bringing you in, or your pastor may have pulled the trigger on bringing you in, but really, if we really get down to the nuts and bolts of this, it's Jesus that brought you here, that's right, and it's Jesus that put the calling on your life.

Speaker 4 8:37

And it's Jesus you're going to have to stand before at the end of time, not? Your pastor or your exec team. I mean, there are details that are on the outside of that not your pastor or your exec team.

Speaker 4 8:49

There are details that are on the outside of that, but ultimately, when you talk about longevity and not giving up before just because things get tough or because things are completely different than when you started, you're going to answer to Jesus for those decisions of what you're going to do with your ministry. And did you finish your race or not? Right yeah.

Speaker 3 9:04

I think when I think about the church you know, capital C church, but also all of the different church expressions that were in this pretty, pretty wide ranging group that we represent, which I think is part is so fun, and you know I always think and to your question about transitions and changes, and even when the times get tough, I think about Psalm 84, which has kind of been for me, you know I can say that that was a word from the Lord for me. You know, I think thousands of years ago when it was written. I think the Lord was thinking about me. Psalm 84, 10,. I'd rather be a doorkeeper the better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere.

Speaker 3 9:48

And he says I'd rather be a doorkeeper and so, and I, so I geeked out on it.

Speaker 3 9:53

I can, I can nerd out on things, and so if you go and you study that a lot of scholars think that the Psalmist was on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem but was actually barred from getting into the Temple Mount because Jerusalem was being sacked by Sennacherib. You can read the story. Some scholars think this, and so he's actually writing this. He's a Levite, most likely a Levite priest, priest, and he's writing this because he can actually see. He can see the temple mount, but he's blocked from where he wants to be by this massive army that's trying to tear it down.

Speaker 3 10:37

And so talk about a hard. Can you imagine that, like, your whole life is church and the presence of God? And but you've got this heart, you've got this thing that's so big in front of you. And he said I'd rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. And most likely, again, some scholars think he was looking at the tents of this massive problem and he's like no, I want to be, I want to be in God's presence and I want to be a doorkeeper and if you study that and again I I can nerd out on it. Gatekeepers and doorkeepers in in the, in the temple. They were highly trained, they were the most skilled and they were completely anonymous.

Speaker 1 11:13

Come on.

Speaker 3 11:13

And I just thought okay, that's a good recipe for me.

Speaker 2 11:18

Come on.

Speaker 3 11:20

Because I want to be. You talk about achieving man. I'm right there with you, but it is the name of Jesus that is higher than John Larson's name, mark Harris's name, any of us, john Larson's name, mark Harris's name, any of us and I think that's a key for us to just stay fresh, to stay to be faithful with what God's given us, cause we're, we've been given the opportunity to create these worship experiences for people, and I know there's people, there's men and women that are listening to this podcast, watching this podcast right now, and you're facing stuff that's hard, but we, we have this, this incredible gift to set the table, you know, for people to experience the Lord, and I think it's the key. His presence is the key, and I think it's humility. I think it's we gotta. We gotta be good at what we do and we gotta be. We gotta not care about who gets the credit. I think for me, in my experience, that has helped me weather the tough times, because they always come. It's so wild.

Speaker 4 12:20

I'm not going to reject it. It's so wild. I was on the way down here today. I was listening to a podcast on Psalm 84.

Speaker 4 12:27

Really, yeah, and it was about the sons of Korah and of course you go back and do your research and you know Korah and his opposition to Moses and Aaron, but that the sons of Korah were the doorkeepers and that when Babylon came in and took everybody captive, that the people that they took out of the temple were the high priest, the underpriest and the doorkeepers Wild. Those are the doorkeepers, wild. Those are the ones that they took and it was the sons of Korah that they took.

Speaker 4 12:58

That's how highly they thought of the doorkeepers of the temple On the same level that they wanted to take the high priest as well. And I view worship as we're kind of the doorkeepers of the church, especially of the weekend experience, because we're kind of the first, you know, in an emotional way, we're the first people that people react with when they come to our church.

Speaker 3 13:26

Yeah, I always think about early Church of the Highlands. So I'm the second worship pastor of Church of the Highlands. Our first was our. I'm the second worship pastor of Church of the Highlands. Our first was our senior pastor, now founding pastor, chris Hodges.

Speaker 3 13:37

So, but we so we met in Mountain Brook High School and which that doesn't mean anybody, unless you're listening in Birmingham, you know what I'm talking about. But they had this. We met in their performing arts center. They had this massive green theatrical curtain, you know, and the only way to get through it was just one. You know, one split in the curtain and you kind of, of course, you go to Matthew and where it talks about when Jesus died. The curtain was torn from top to bottom. That's so much cool story there. But you know, I've always shared with our worship team it's what our job is to basically just get on either side of this curtain and through our worship, through our service on that day, all we're doing, we're just pulling that curtain away, we're just opening up, letting people see a little bit of God's glory. So anyways, again I can nerd out on all that.

Speaker 4 14:30

That's like a weird tangent to go on.

Speaker 2 14:32

That's not a tangent. We could be here a long time Could that be because we're worship pastors, maybe, so I mean, we're going to always go there.

Speaker 1 14:39

What you see also in that psalm. Like you're attending to the presence of God. When you talk about transitions, and when you talk about we always, I mean my nature is to focus on the what. What's going to happen, what are the next steps? What's this going to mean for me or others, or the organization or whatever it is which is needed, which is a part of the process? Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1 15:01

But the central thing is like I think God draws us into those spaces to change us and to uniquely, somehow, mysteriously, he wants to say something to us. In that storm, in that transition, like all these other things are happening and maybe there was massive failure or maybe there was, whatever it is, and we're kind of freaking out about that out there and God's drawing us in and saying, hey, I'm going to say something special for you, I'm going to, you know, attending to the presence of the lord, like that.

Speaker 1 15:35

And it makes me think of mark, chapter 2, like yeah where you know the ministry of the mat, basically like picking up a corner of the mat coordinating and we've got to get this guy into the presence got to get him into the presence because that's the only. That's the only hope.

Speaker 3 15:49

And it probably sounds cliche to say that, to say, hey, you have to stay in the presence of God, but that really is, I mean, I think, the truth of weathering hard times, weathering transitions. All that is not like you said, maybe the process, it's literally just what does it take for you to be in the presence of God? And so the prescription is pretty easy Read your Bible, I mean, you know. Pray, you know it's that worship, and so you have to. But the doing it is what gets, especially in ministry for people, because you got Sundays coming. I mean it's amazing how quick Sunday comes around.

Speaker 1 16:29

You know what I mean Shocking regularity. Practically, what does that look like for you guys to tend the present? What does the trellis look like for the fruit to grow? Some people call it discipline practice but, practically speaking, you're speaking to a young worship pastor who's ordering their weeks, ordering their days, because it comes down to those moment-by-moment, day-by-day decisions of how we deal with our life.

Speaker 3 16:54

Well, I think it's been modeled for us in the Word of God. I think the life of David gives us that picture, and if you look at his writings in the Psalms and you read about his story, he was a friend of God. What do friends do? What did we do when we all saw it? We just had lunch, right before this podcast Big hugs, man, it's so good to see you. I hadn't seen you in so long Reunion Texting. It was joy. Hey, what kind of food do you want for lunch?

Speaker 1 17:22

That's one of my favorite ones, ministers. Deep, deep into myself. It got deep.

Speaker 2 17:28

It got deep.

Speaker 3 17:29

But I think that style of communication is key to engaging God's presence Because, again, it is so easy. It doesn't matter what your church background is, your denominational affiliation, your upbringing, even your theology on the secondary or tertiary theological you like that word I threw in there. God wants to be with us, and so I think a simple start to attending to the presence of God is when I wake up in the morning, it's good morning, lord.

Speaker 1 18:02

My rhythm man.

Speaker 3 18:03

I'm just so thankful. Thank you, lord for it. Nothing super, you know, thought out, it's just man. I love you, lord, thank you Jesus, thank you for today, and I think that just sets a table and I think, in my opinion, a simple just. You know it's so simple. If he's my first thought, that opens up the rest of my day to encounter God through other people, encounter God, you know, in worship and all that stuff. So I feel like the way you start determines the rest, and so, as you're building those spiritual disciplines, it has to start. I mean, I'm sure I'm preaching literally to a choir, but it starts with this relationship that I'm going to be a friend of the Lord, and that starts by, like Lord, I'm thinking about some, some fried eggs this morning.

Speaker 3 18:55

What do you know, and I don't want to like make it cheesier, but it's, it's literally you're inviting him into every, every season of your life. I think sometimes, as worship leaders, we can. We can just cut, we can just complicate everything. Everything has to be, it has to feel the right way. You know, I think, I think about my relationship with my incredible wife of of now 22 years. You know it's it's important for me just to say good morning you know like and not go straight to.

The Doorkeepers of God's Presence

Speaker 3 19:21

You know what's your plan for today, you know, so I think it starts there. I'd love to hear what you guys think about where it goes from there, but it has to start with this. You know, I think it has direct correlation to when you're standing in front of your congregation, or whatever setting it is, and you're leading worship. There is a direct correlation between good morning Lord and then the anointing that we all crave and we want when we're in front of people.

Speaker 2 19:47

I love that because it's the simple things that you do in your life that actually have the biggest impact, and I think of that just because there's always someone else in the room with Jody and I. If we're believers, it's the Holy Spirit. That's right. We're never alone. It's not just her and I, it's the three of us.

Speaker 4 20:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2 20:03

And I think the key is remaining aware of that, because it's being aware of his presence and acknowledging it. Yeah, because if that's true and the Holy Spirit is always with us, then it's kind of rude if we don't acknowledge that the presence of God is there. And I think back on the beginning of last year you know we use these phones, I pulled it out just to say this I've heard one person say this could be the portal to hell, for so many people.

Speaker 2 20:36

And it's not just that you might look at things that you shouldn't look at on the phone, but it also can run your life Absolutely Because of just the way that we live. And so Jody and I, at the beginning of 2024, before we knew anything was going to happen the way it happened at Gateway, at the end of the year.

Speaker 2 21:00

Jody said hey, what if we took communion every morning, as we're doing our daily Bible reading and prayer? And I said but wouldn't it get too familiar? I'm just afraid it might lose its impact. And so Jody was the one that was like no, I think we need to. And she said I think we need to start at the table of the Lord before we have any other meal or do anything else. Let's come to his table and let's take communion. And so in 2024, almost every morning, I have meetings all day long. It's like sometimes I look before I go to bed, I'll look at tomorrow and I'll go.

Speaker 4 21:35

Oh, so many back and forth.

Speaker 2 21:38

But the one meeting that you know, jody and I decided that we wouldn't cancel or adjust was our 7 am meeting with the Lord. And it was like you know, it was like just as important as any meeting that I have. I had to make that a meeting that I was not willing to adjust or to basically shift or move, or just you know it had to be important.

Speaker 2 22:01

And so last year we did that and the impact of what it had in our life I can't even begin to explain or express. It's just like there was always grace for any moment and it was because my morning I invited the Holy Spirit into my entire day and I went to the table of the Lord. And it's like I mean, beginning of January last year, jody and I were up and I even started praying, lord, heal my body. And Jody was like why are you praying for healing over your body? And it's like well, that's because at the end of February I found out that I had cancer and I needed that prayer. Like I was, you know, before I would take the body of the Lord and drink the blood or juice. I would just be like, okay, god, I don't know why I'm praying for healing, but the Holy Spirit knew I needed to pray that in advance.

Speaker 2 22:52

But when you stay tuned in to hearing the voice of the Lord and when you begin your day and that's the reason, because I love the way you're saying like, put that into your rhythm Be aware that the Lord is with you. And so because you can shut the presence of God out of your life by getting too busy and not acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is with you. But it goes beyond even me being ready to lead worship on a weekend. It's crucial if you're leading worship, but it's just the rhythm of your life as a believer should be. I'm going to acknowledge the presence of God in my life every day. I'm going to get into his word. So we would read the word every day and and it's like I mean sometimes when you're reading through the Bible, I mean some of that. You know there are mornings where I was like that's a weird meal.

Speaker 2 23:49

I just had Leviticus gets tough numbers, you know, and here comes numbers and here comes lamentation, but it's like it all. I mean, the thing that I've learned is that there's no substitute for, I would say, getting in the Word and I love mornings, and then praying, and our prayer list grew through the year, and then we would mark things off as prayers would get answered and our prayer list grew through the year, and then we would mark things off as prayers would get answered, and it was really neat for us to look at our list and see what had a line through it because God answered that prayer and so it was like well, then we became it actually became for Jody and I like we're letting people down because we're

Speaker 2 24:25

praying over their situations and we're like, no, we have to see this through. But the thing that I realized is the biggest impact that it had was on me personally and it was just the transformation that occurred in my life. So, if you want you know if you will create the appointment and keep the appointment and not be willing to adjust the appointment with. God, then it will have a huge impact in your life just as a believer, but also as a pastor, leader in worship, creative.

Speaker 4 24:56

I love that both of y'all started out with the Word of God. You've got to know the Word and if you're going to have success and finish well in any type of ministry and we're talking about worship ministry here you need to know what the Bible has to say about it. Yeah, and we promised we were going to talk about transitions.

Speaker 3 25:13

I want to get back to that, but I think it's great. I think we're going where the Holy Spirit wants us to go here.

Speaker 4 25:18

I know for me in the transitions that I've been through, and of course the older I get, is that I love lists. If I don't have lists, I don't get anything done. I'm a list guy. I have to. You know, even yesterday I had this long day of getting a lot of stuff done before we started doing these podcasts.

Speaker 4 25:37

And if I didn't have that list down there, I probably would have gotten a quarter of them done, because I'd have been distracted all over the place. And I think that's one of the things that can keep us focused in worship ministry is knowing what the Word of God has to say about this. And I will just say, for me there are two lists that I go to Psalm 100 and the Lord's Prayer, and if you dig deeper it's like God just kind of places this. I love games and puzzles and that's how my mind works, and I love finding these things through Scripture to go. Aha, there's another one, there's another way that God— Somebody said this one time that there are 30 to 40 verses on the creation of the world.

Speaker 4 26:18

There are more than 400 verses on the construction of the temple and how it's to be and how you're supposed to go into the temple and worship.

Speaker 3 26:23

So God's way more interested in how we approach Him than how this whole thing got started right.

Speaker 4 26:29

So for me, Psalm 100 is one of my go-to is Enter His gates with thanksgiving, into His courts with praise. Know ye the Lord. He is God. He has made us and not we ourselves. It puts us in our place, right? Yep, you know it's. Shout joyfully to the Lord. Yeah, it's come before Him with joyful songs. And then now Jesus said you should pray in this way. You should pray in this way. Our father which art in heaven hallowed, be thy name, your kingdom come, your will be done. So what are you doing? You're putting yourself under his authority and recognizing your place in all of this.

Speaker 4 27:01

And now we can get rolling instead of just jumping out of bed, going whew, it's going to be a heck of a day. I got a lot of things to do and I know, for me, in transition and all the transitions I've been through, really solidifying those lists in my heart and in my mind, through what the Word of God has to say is to go okay, worship really hasn't changed since the creation of the universe?

Speaker 4 27:26

It really hasn't. There is a form and a function. There are iterations, because God is infinite, and we're always going to find something new about God, right and some factor or some way of approaching not maybe approaching, but worshiping him that we haven't thought about yet. I think that'll be what we experience in eternity.

Speaker 4 27:44

There are going to be a billion or more ways to worship him when we get there, but there is a form and function that gives me peace to go. Okay, just do it again. Just do it again and, even in this season, stick to what the Bible has to say about worship.

Daily Disciplines for Worship Leaders

Speaker 4 28:01

Don't go off on this flaky tangent over here. Don't get too caught up in what's happening over here. You can bring those things in to make sure it follows the form and function. So when I've gone from my little church in Florida that I helped start with a friend back in 2000 to a mega church in Tulsa for 20 years to now working with churches across the country where I see all different expressions and different personalities in worship, one thing that keeps me centered through all of that is let's go back to the list. Right, that's good. What are the lists in the Bible that tell us this is how God should be worshiped? Yeah, timeless.

Speaker 4 28:35

And if we'll stick to that. It's not boring.

Speaker 3 28:38

Right.

Speaker 4 28:38

Yeah, there's depth into everything that God tells us. There's more layers to uncover, and it's more beautiful and more beautiful the more you do it and I, and it's more beautiful and more beautiful.

Speaker 1 28:49

the more you do it and I think, the more gray hairs you get and all that stuff. It kind of tethers us to what's immovable, and when everything else is moving it reminds me too. Our ministry life has had big chunks in places for seven to eight years, but there's always been a move towards the next season, Like that's just how God wired us up to come in and to help build, maybe help heal, help rebuild, retrench, maybe, you know, in a, in a prophetic sense, help to call out idols.

Speaker 1 29:27

And and, and I think, when you're in the transition times and the pressure, there's usually a pressure, there's an uncertainty. That's when the idols kind of get revealed.

Speaker 3 29:37

Yeah that's right.

Speaker 1 29:38

You get a bit of an if you do a thought audit when you're in those seasons and what's really occupying your heart, what's really occupying your mind, and you think about, like the children of Israel, when they're out of Egypt and they're not in the promised land, they're in the in-between, they're in the land between I think Jeff Mannion wrote a book about that the Land Between what God wants to say in the transition, what God wants to work, how he wants to, and that it can be some of the most beautiful, rich times with the Lord when we're freaking out about all the external circumstances, most of which we can't control. We are able to process and for me, over the last several years I think even of getting older, like I'm a three, two and it's just like wake up and just trying to be awesome man, it's like yeah, trying, it's just like wake up and just trying to be awesome man.

Speaker 1 30:32

It's like trying to get the gold star and you realize that your days start with a sense of activity and purpose. And I realized that even early in my childhood hurry was built in.

Speaker 1 30:45

It was like you have to go, you have to go. There was a thing about time. There was like we're going to race to the car, we're going to do this. It was part of our family dna and I had this sense of like, unsettled, I've got to do this now, like I didn't have a sense of patience or a sense of how this was going to roll, and so your body kind of keeps the score on that, that low grade like thing that's going on underneath the surface.

Speaker 1 31:12

And so as you get older, your ability to absorb that stress changes and the stressors of different things, and we I literally physically had to reset my rhythms and so and I'm like I love the morning and my mind turns on when my eyeballs fly open and whatever is in that list that comes down right, and I've had to learn to bring the morning in really slowly, literally taking like 90 minutes probably every day to mosey a putter through the home when nobody's up yet, to have coffee, to sit with the lord, to quiet my heart. Before I ever visit the list, and that's been like a few years now, where it's like like a 90minute before the engine really starts and then I operate from a much different place. It's basically what you're saying. Just practically speaking, I had to give myself permission to not fire the engines and go running out as soon as my feet hit the floor and my body told me I had to do that.

Speaker 2 32:25

But it's an appointment. It's an appointment.

Speaker 1 32:28

I look forward to it.

Speaker 2 32:29

I think about it the night before, when I'm going to bed and saying prayers in the evening, and it still has to do with transitions, because you can surf the transitions of life if you have the right things in your life and if you get alone with the presence of God every day. The one thing I was thinking is there's a scripture that it's a life verse for me, but I always go to it and it's a scripture that has sustained me through a lot of the different transitions that I've experienced over the course of my life, and it's 2 Corinthians, 4, 16 through 18, and it says four do not lose heart, though outwardly you may perish, inwardly you're being renewed day by day For your light, and momentary trials are achieving for us an eternal weight of glory that far outweighs them all, for we look not to that which is seen, but to that which is unseen.

Speaker 2 33:21

Because that which is seen is temporary, but that which is unseen is eternal. And it's like, if we keep an eternal mindset and we realize that, regardless of what happens here, number one, we're just stewards, but this is not our home, like we can't get too attached. When you talked about, when you said, idols, it made me think yeah, the thing is is we start thinking that there's something in this world that we can take with us or store up and it's like no, regardless of where God assigns you to serve, keep an eternal mindset. Remember that, because it's like a doorkeeper. It doesn't sound like a fancy thing, it sounds like a very mundane responsibility and job. It's not an executive pastor title and it's like but if you know where you're going and you know that that's your target, then it'll be okay, wherever you get placed.

Speaker 3 34:16

I have a completely different tangent on the same topic. Yeah, please, Because we've talked about very biblical things, very you know, discipline-facing things too, and maybe this is for maybe this is my experience. You know, musicians were all kind of a little weird, we're all a little strange and a lot of us are broody. Me, yeah, it's not not anything perfect did?

Speaker 1 34:37

you just pointed. And when you said yeah, he said musicians my point though, is what we just did?

Speaker 3 34:49

is you got to take yourself a little lightly?

Speaker 1 34:52

You got to have a little bit of fun too.

Speaker 3 34:56

And I think worship has this bent towards. We got to get to that amazing moment and it's just where all the feels are there and we just want to get to that deep place. And I don't want to treat the presence of God lightly, but the joy of the Lord, shout for joy is what you just referenced earlier. The joy of the Lord is our strength. So how can we have fun? And specifically in the transition time?

Speaker 2 35:23

Oh yeah.

Finding Joy Through Change

Speaker 3 35:23

Right on, Because I mean, joy is a choice. It's not just something that comes to you and maybe I'm talking to the artist who's kind of tapped into that deeper emotional ocean that we have, and that's good. But, man, we've got to have fun too. Like for me, I mean, just to even be sitting at this table is such a lift to my spirit, just because we actually have some fun stories together and we had some good times, we had some good laughs, and I think that's key, like when we're in the midst of something, that's when the world's changing around us.

Speaker 3 36:14

For me personally, at this moment I'm moving from. I've been on a church team my entire adult life. All I know is ministry. All I really care about is ministry. Now I'm moving into this role at a college that's training the next generation of ministry leaders, which is so awesome and it's so related to what I've done. But I've realized, like you talk about grieving the change and all that stuff that can get on you too much and you've got to be able to like I don't know, just have some fun.

Speaker 4 36:39

I hate to talk about laughing and having fun as an artist and as being a worship pastor when something's off, something's out of balance and there are tough things you're going to have to deal with. But what's the old adage? We get to play music.

Speaker 3 36:53

Play is a key. What a dream job.

Speaker 4 36:56

Yeah, I know right, when you think about it.

Speaker 3 36:58

I know I preach myself all the time.

Speaker 2 37:00

That is a dream job, but I think you tapped into something there that I think is so important because if laughter, if we can choose joy in the middle of the times when we don't understand and we don't, it's like during those seasons because there is a choice that we have and opportunity that we have to basically lean into that. So I would say that if you're going through a time of transition, I think what John just said is very important. I almost felt like it was something that we need to highlight and go okay, choose joy. Because the reality is, if life and death is in the power of the tongue, then so much of what we say determines whether or not we have joy through transition.

Speaker 2 37:52

And it's true, my heart gets attached to people, my heart gets attached to my assignment. And then all of a sudden, when I'm being moved, I'm like, oh, but what about? I poured so much into this. And then I'm like but I don't want to let go of that. But it's like and there can be some sadness in that, but I love when you said, hey, but choose joy Every day, and I love that. I'm like, yeah, I think that's a good word for people, I think.

Speaker 3 38:18

I think a key to that. I didn't mean to cut you off, but no, you're good.

Speaker 3 38:22

It's through other people like it's community, and I don't want to get too, you know, cheesy and and you know sappy here, but, but like seeing you guys was fun for me today, yeah 100 and you know I've had a couple things that I've had to deal with over the last couple weeks that you all don't even know about, but just getting to hang out with you guys, we had some good laughs. You know I told you an embarrassing story, right.

Speaker 4 38:47

You guys remember that.

Speaker 3 38:49

It's for another time, but we all laughed at it and that's just a. You know it's not and I'm doing great, but anyways, I just think it's just a. You know it's not and I'm I'm doing great, but anyways, I just think it's so. It's so important it's our relationships too that that get us through that. You know, we can't be alone.

Speaker 3 39:04

We have to be around people yeah it doesn't mean that you're always spending all that time together, but but we have this, you know. So there's that, there's a little bit of a dynamic, even with this group, and I and I I feel like, like you know, mice among men here at this table at times because of all the accomplishments that you guys represent, and but I also feel like I can just pick up with y'all where where we left off and we haven't seen each other in a while, and so so that's actually there's something to that, and I think we.

Speaker 3 39:35

You know you can't be isolated. You have to get into that community.

Speaker 1 39:38

Make it a priority, and I think that's maybe what the worship table is all about.

Speaker 2 39:41

Yeah let's go, don't be isolated. I think it's so important when you say that, because I'm like, yes, it's the thing that we weren't made to be alone, we were made to do things together and we're better together and we're better when we because I agree with you, I mean it's great seeing you today, john. It's like, yeah, there's my friend and it's, but it's like and it doesn't take long for us, even though so much has happened in our lives since we last saw one another.

Speaker 2 40:11

But it's like hey there's, we pick up right where we left off as far as the relational thing, and I think that when God gives you the gift of that, I would say that it's important to lean into that, and that's one of the reasons that we did start the worship table was to say, to worship pastors and worship leaders and creatives, hey, you need to sit at a table with other people that have the same and similar experiences and make sure that you you have the community, because community is crucial.

Speaker 1 40:40

Yeah, this is, I mean, this is a perfect place, I think, to to land this plane.

Speaker 3 40:45

we could go all day and I know you got another thing to get to and you got but I do.

Speaker 1 40:50

I do want to say we need to have more conversations, because, even as we're like talking through this, to go in granular with some of the things, even Because, even as we're talking through this, to go in granular with some of the things, even we've talked through and conversed about specific transitions, specific things. There's so much that can be gleaned from that and that's why, obviously, the online community, the safe space, and then the in-person retreats that are launching later this year, we have to gather and we're like I mean, I feel like we're kind of like the Peloton instructors of worship Like we make suggestions, but you make decisions worship pastor we can help you.

Speaker 1 41:27

We're going to provide a guide, but you have to be ready to lean in and engage. And maybe if you're in a place in a season of strength right now and you're in a season of, like the roots are down deep, I'm in a place of strength, then then what can you give away in lifting up someone else in this community, because somebody is going to be joining this community that needs that and so really honored I'm. We all feel the same dude.

Speaker 1 41:52

You say like oh man, I mean, I've these guys been selling records since whatever there's like gold records on the wall.

Speaker 3 41:59

I don't have that one over there.

Community as Anchor During Transitions

Speaker 1 42:01

It's like so, yeah, we're all God just is. It's a smile of the Lord, I think, His kindness to pull us into these rooms and the threads all these years. It's rich, it's just beautiful. So thank you guys, thanks for taking time.

Speaker 3 42:14

Appreciate you being here. We're going to do more. Yeah, yeah. Thank you all so much.

Speaker 2 42:17

You're not a mice among men. No, no, thank you Appreciate that A man.

Speaker 3 42:21

A large rodent, a man, rodents of unusual size.

Speaker 4 42:25

We'll see you guys, next time We'll see you yeah.