Learning To Lead When You’re Not Ready with Matthew Harris

What happens when God calls you into worship ministry and you can’t sing or play? We sit down with Matthew Harris of Gateway Church to trace a path forged by obedience, curiosity, and a lot of unglamorous reps.

We talk leading the next generation.  We dive into the power of safe places to fail for young leaders, especially in high-expectation environments. Matthew shares how asking better questions, inviting mentors close, and building a working knowledge of tech created confidence without ego.

We talk songwriting.  He treats songs like arrows—each with an intended purpose—freeing him from chasing reach and centering the joy on creating with God. Some songs stay private; others wait years for their moment.

We talk staying healthy in ministry.  Matthew outlines practical boundaries, weekly calendar audits, and partnering with leadership and HR to stay healthy. The goal is simple and hard: arrive on Sunday full, not empty. Keep the main thing the main thing—pastor people to Jesus, model it without hype, and choose the “uncool” move if it serves the room. 

If this resonates with you, we would be honored for you to follow the show, share it with a friend who leads worship, and leave a review to help more leaders find these conversations.  

The Worship Table is a sacred space for worship pastors and creative leaders—a place of rest, renewal, and real connection. Just as the Lord’s Table welcomes all, this Table exists to refresh those who pour out week after week. Through mentorship, shared experiences, and deep community, we invite you to step away from isolation and into a space of belonging, encouragement, and growth. You don’t have to lead alone—there is a place for you here.

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Transcript

From Sports To A Calling In Worship

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Well, hey, welcome to the worship table, Matthew Harris. Glad to be here. One of the worship pastors at Gateway Church. Yes, sir. A longtime friend of Andy. So talk just a little bit about your role and your relationship to Andy and Gateway and your dad. All of it. Like, because I'm really excited to dive into the conversation about worship pastoring, but uh you're one of the younger ones of us and you've got unique perspectives. So we want to hear a little bit of the backstory.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

For sure. So um I grew up in a Christian home. My dad was uh in for him with um, I will call him Uncle Andy because that's who he has been to me, which I would expect. It would feel weird not to at this point. That's right. And so um, like family there, and so I grew up in a Christian home uh with my dad um as a worship pastor, leading worship and being a CCM artist, and so grew up there, but I did not choose the church and did not choose Jesus, did not welcome him into my life until I got to college. So you're playing baseball in college, right? Football. So I was at football, that's right. Baseball and football, every sport I could play growing up. And then when I got to college, I was playing football there and wanted to uh I was a political science major. I was like, I'm going to law school, I want to make some money. And so uh that was my plan. Ended up getting saved when I got to college, gave my life to the Lord, and he said worship. Wow. Which for me was wild because uh I did not play an instrument. I didn't grow up playing music, even growing up in a musical household, that just wasn't what I wanted to do. And so when the Lord said that, I was there at the university and then kind of asking myself, like, Lord, music? Like, are you like, are you sure worship? And my sister leads worship as well. My mom led worship and truth too. And so I was like, that's what the rest of them do. Like, that's not me. That's not kind of my deal. Yeah. And so I remember calling my mom and dad as I had like three prophetic confirmations that it was the Lord. So I'm nervous calling my parents saying, like, I'm gonna change my degree to worship to music. And I got on the phone with them, and um, they both were so encouraging right off the bat. And I had only been saved for about a year at the time. So a lot of my questions were like, Is this the voice of God? Like, help me, help me. And so the first thing they confirmed is like, that sounds like the Lord, Matthew. And so they're so proud. My mom was like, I always knew it.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

And if you don't, my mom, that's moms always moms always say they do. Oh, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

And then I remember the first question my dad asked me was like, son, this is so awesome. I'm so proud of you. Do you play anything? Do you sing?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

And I was like, So there is a requirement of being in worship. For sure. Yes, you have to have some kind of talent, and I didn't.

Starting With No Skills And Lots Of Grit

SPEAKER_01 3:00

And so um I remember him asking me that, and I was like, no, I don't, but I'm gonna figure this thing out. And I was at a Southern Baptist college, and the song that I did for my audition, because I didn't listen to a lot of Christian music, which was wild, but um was a Kings of Leon song called Pyro. Now looking back at that moment at the Southern Baptist College, they were probably they were so wide-eyed with some of the lyrics I was singing in that song. Like incredible. He just said, What? And then I did uh I think Amazing Grace after that because it was one of the ones I knew. And by the skin of my teeth, made it into the music program. And then from there, ended up here at Gateway after I graduated. Thought I was gonna go into the mission field, really wanted to go overseas and do missions. And the Lord um planted me here at our North Richland Hills campus and told me, this is your mission field. And so um came on as the a worship pastor at that campus, and I've been here at Gateway ever since. Spent seven years at that campus, and now I've moved within the last two to three years into our central offices overseeing uh young adults, youth, and kids' worship for all of our campuses.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Wow. Wow. Well, we just continue to hear great things from you. Of course, you're all over the Gateway albums, and as a songwriter, as a as a worship leader, and it I mean again, as Uncle Andy, it's it's it's a very proud moment for me to see, you know, what you've the career that you've chosen, the calling that you've surrendered to, because you I it would have to be a calling, right? I mean, when you're saying I didn't play an instrument and I really hadn't sung before, but yet you feel like God's called you into worship ministry, it is a it is a definite calling. But here's one thing that I want to go back to though. That that that skill set had to be lying dormant in you, right? You just had to tap into it and put hard work. Am I right about that?

Cutting Teeth: Keys, Crashes, And Cornerstone

SPEAKER_01 4:48

A lot of hard work. Yeah. A lot of hard work. And I I'm I mean, that was that season of cutting my teeth. And um the first song, I didn't, I didn't know anything about music, and I ended up in this um, I don't even know what is some sort of an ensemble that we were in where you would all just lead a song. It's just kind of a practicum kind of deal. And the song I chose was Cornerstone, and all I told them was they were like, you gotta pick a key, and I didn't know how to pick a key on anything, none of that. And so I'm like, I don't know what to do. I just don't want to sing the really high part, which was the octave jump. So I didn't want to do the octave jump. So I was like, Well, I think the girl, some girl was trying to help me figure out a key, and I was like, Well, I'll do it higher so I don't have to jump it. So I did it in D. Songs normally in C, and it's pretty high in C. That jumps really good. I'm already hurting for you. Exactly. And so I screamed at the top of my lungs, cornerstone, as we were in the chapel, and my dad was actually there. Amazing. And I was saying if he's the sweetest man in the world and the kindest. And I remember him saying, like, you just keep going for it, bud. Keep going, like I was like, like, loud and clear, dad, loud and clear. But it took a ton of work, a ton of work that um a lot of times I didn't see. Like, I never I it took me probably, I mean, from probably being a worship pastor, actually, for four to five years before I I thought of myself as a singer, which is interesting. I never I didn't think about it a lot, but there was one day where I was like, I really enjoy singing. And before that, I never even thought about it because I didn't think I had the skill. But I was like, well, Lord, if you called me to this, I'll work, I'll work towards it. And what's really great is if God's called you something, he'll equip you for what he called you to. And I feel like I'm living proof of it because I didn't know I I could sing. I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

I just it was years in the making, really. Years for you to get comfortable with your the musical gift. For sure. I mean, that's a that's a statement to younger, you know, worship leaders, creatives. Because I think now I think there is a sense of instantaneousness. Like if if you can sing and we can fire up Ableton, you know, we're just gonna roll and it's gonna sound like a record.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

And and then Well you got all the you got all the toys now. All the toys.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

And so that the that what I see happening is like, oh, we went to three services, but now my voice can't sustain it. Or now I don't have the acumen to to lead in this environment that doesn't have Ableton or whatever. And so that that kind of that churning, that woodshed time is really important.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Immensely, immensely. Just cutting your teeth and learning, well, uh, I'm really gonna nail like what key am I in before I get into the song and knowing it. Because I can't tell you how many times when I didn't realize, well, if I go to the fourth, I really need to make sure I establish myself in that new key. Yeah. Because I'm gonna start singing it like I just messed that up a million times as I was leading small groups because that's all anybody would let me lead. And so I did it for years and years and years, and you grow that way. So when Ableton goes down and you're in a service, you're like, oh no, I know how to do this better than Ableton.

Practice Over Plugins: Building Real Capacity

Asking Questions And Finding Mentors

SPEAKER_00 7:53

And so repetition is the best, is the best teacher. Oh, for sure. Yeah, and I think you said it well. You know, there's a sense of, you know, I can do this now because we have all the things, we have tracks and we have, you know, we have vocal, live vocal tuning, and we have all these things that we can make ourselves look and sound really good right off the bat. But to be effective and to actually get the most out of the gift that God has given you and the calling he's put on your life, you'd have to do it again and again and again and again. And sometimes that's the hardest thing to figure out is where am I going to do this and how am I going to keep doing it? Because that's the only way you're going to get better is by doing it over and over. So let's talk about the transition, the time between um when you were, you started, you started, you were on the worship team in college and you changed your major to the time you actually got your first worship pastor job. Uh just take us kind of through that journey of of everything that that God put you through before He landed you in the role that you're in now.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

It was wild. And I was talking to somebody about this just the other day because telling the story doesn't make sense to me because some of the places I found myself in, I would tell, I would there was a pastor who hired me, so I'll I'll tell the story. Okay. So I get ahead of myself. Um so I get to college, end up on this worship team. And how I ended up on that worship team was because I knew no one at the college. I was playing football there, and the guy who led worship for their athletic chapel said during one of those chapels, like, we need a bass player. And I just pulled my hamstring, so I was having to just be on the sidelines because I was scholarship, so you still have to show up to practice. And he was the second strength center, and I was I was talking with him and I was like, Man, I my family's kind of musical. I brought an acoustic guitar to impress a girl. So, like, hey, if if you taught me, I could learn, and I didn't realize who I was talking to. Now, being a worship pastor, anyone willing when there's nobody is a great person. So he called me a week later and was like, I need you to play electric. And I'm like, I don't think you heard me. I don't, I don't play. You're gonna have to teach me. And so I played every chord I knew, and I plugged an electric guitar, not even into a direct box. It was straight into the floor of this old chapel. Amazing. And just I would play one, uh, one, four, didn't know how to play the six in that key, so just wouldn't play. And then we come back in on I'm telling you, it was bad. It was bad. And so I went from there, was on that for a semester this summer, came back, and my parents were here at Gateway at that time. And so learned a lot being around here. That guy graduated and he was like, Do you want to be over the band? There was Slim Pickens, so there weren't a lot of people that he had to choose from, but put me over the band. At that point, I was in freshman music theory, learning music theory at this point as a sophomore. So a little bit behind even then, and teaching the people on the athletic chapel band how to play music as I was leading, uh learning it that morning. So I was learning how to build a triad, and I would go to the rehearsal that night and be like, Well, they said if you want to make it minor, that middle finger, you just go back one. And like teaching my piano play, I remember it was an F sharp minor. I remember the chord, like as I was learning it. And so I was talking through that, and so ended up over that band. And then the next thing that happened is I got hired at I was getting paid not even enough gas to get to the church of this little Southern Baptist church that opened a contemporary service. And in that, um, they were like, You have to buy everything, you have to purchase everything for us. And I was like, I remember at a lunch sitting across from this pastor and saying, I don't know how to do any of the things you just told me I need to do. And he was like, You seem like you'll work hard though. And I was like, I will do that. Like, I this guy's gonna figure it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Honestly, he's like, cheap labor, let's go. And I was like, Yeah, I'm I'm willing. I'm willing. Anything the Lord puts in front of me that feels like him.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

That right there. I mean, I don't want to interrupt your story totally, but just you saying I was willing, like your yes was on the table. It sounds like your your just your yes was on the table, and that was what was key to the path. For sure. It wasn't that that you had all the stuff you you were just willing and then you were equipped along the way. Okay, keep going.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

But that's honestly, that's the the whole story, really, in the in a nutshell, is like I it's not about what I see in front of me, it's about what God's asked me to do. And then all it takes is me saying yes. Like that's as easy as it is. And so in everything, it's like maybe I can't, I don't feel like I'm qualified to do the things, but that's not what he asked. He didn't ask me to be qualified. He asked me to say yes. Yeah. And that's what we see in scripture. So I ended up there and I learned so much about tech. So I ordered the soundboard, I've I ordered lighting, I had I've made friends that I would call at churches around and be like, what do I do with this? I would call back home, ask people, what should I do? What should I do? I got really good at asking questions because I had to. And so built the whole system there. I would uh in the morning, I would set the levels and then run up there and lead worship. Uh and uh there are too many train wreck stories through that that I learned from about our first service, the guy firing click on drums and it playing a song off of my uh my MacBook over the entire service. It was a it was a Blue October song. I was gonna say it was a weird, appropriate good song. It was Into the Ocean by Blue October. I think it was just like the first song on I hadn't heard that song in yeah. I was like, this is the weirdest way to start a service. I'm so sorry. But learned a lot.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah, I can't tell you how many um young guys, uh young people in in worship ministry have contacted me over the years, especially when I was on full-time staff at Church on the Move, um, just finding my number somewhere, or or you know, they would they would find large churches across America and just say, could I talk to the worship pastor? Yeah. And just ask questions, like basic questions, where, you know, by this time I'm doing I've been done doing my for 20 years, and I'm like, well, that's like the simplest question ever. But for someone that's just starting out, oh yeah, you know, I really don't know how to do this. Yes. And so asking questions is one of the ways that you learn, you know, and even if you don't go to most of us, I didn't, I'm probably the only one at the table that didn't go to college for for uh worship ministry or or for um for theology, you know, my entire existence as a worship pastor was asking questions. Like, well, how would you do this? How would you do that? And I just had people in my life that I could call, yep, and I could ask their opinion. And and that's how I began to build myself up as a leader in my church. And so, you know, uh for anyone out there that is um you're young and you're just starting out and you're feeling overwhelmed, jump online, contact someone, get on someone's Instagram account or Facebook page or you know, uh, network around. I think it's what the worship table is is really great for is to network and just say, you know, how do I I've got a question. Like, how do I deal with this? And sometimes it's not just, it's not technical questions, it's about teammates, it's team members team members, or my senior pastor, or you know, this this lady in my church that doesn't like how I'm leading worship. What do I do? Yeah. And you don't know the answers to those until you get around people who can answer those questions for you, at least sit with you and listen to you and go, oh yeah. Most people that have done it more than 10 or 12 years will go, oh yeah, I've been through that. Oh yeah, I I've been in that situation before.

Leading Gen Z: Safe Places To Fail

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Staying endlessly curious. It's not that's to me, that's what it sounds like. Yeah, you're endlessly curious to discover and learn, and you may not become a full expert in production, but you have a working knowledge. Now you have to lead people that are in production at times. Exactly. And so you have a work, I mean, I just love that. Really staying humble enough to kind of keep inviting people in. And you're stepping into like I don't feel completely prepared for this moment. Yeah, and scripture is replete with examples of how God calls us into the space that we have to, it's over our head, like completely over our head. So I want to shift gears just for a second. And so you're you look after generational worship here, basically. So kids, students, uh college, next gen, that world, right? And you're you're you're doing that uh across the campuses. Uh part of our mission and vision is to hear from we we know we need Paul, Barnabas, and Timothy. Like we we need to hear from what is God saying to your generation? What do you want our generation to know? You know, that is is that you're seeing in the in the in the Gen Z. In the like I've got a excuse me, I've got a 16-year-old at home who's leading worship in his youth group. He's discovering he's endlessly curious. You know, it's like I feel like I'm, you know, talking to somebody who's walked this path, and my my 16-year-old is doing this. So talk just a little bit about what you're seeing, the challenges, the opportunities in the generation of worship leaders and worship um curator, you know, curating experiences and environments and pastoring right now.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Yeah. Well, forever curious. So I'm always learning and in my role, I'm 31. So even then, like a lot of the people I'm leading are much younger than me. And so I ask a lot of questions. I ask a lot of questions. I ask, like, how are you feeling? What's going on? What are you dealing with in life? And really trying to get in their head because it's different than mine a bit. But I have been there in a lot of ways re more recently. And so um I think for them, giving them safe places to fail is huge because we are so dialed in what we do sometimes that the kind of the bar to entry is high, really high. And higher I wouldn't have been able to. So so I wouldn't have been able to be. Especially at a mega church. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, here, like our youth team, when I started in college, I wouldn't have been able to be on that youth team. I wouldn't have been at the level. And so luckily I had a safe place to fail. And so I think in all of our churches, creating those spaces is just immensely important. And that's what we we try to do here with utilizing things like playback and like in-ears. It's like not everybody has to hear everybody playing sometimes, and you can find workarounds to allow for the experience in a room to still be excellent while developing and creating safe places for people to fail. Because I think a lot of times in leading worship, it it is the boldness of pursuing what the Holy Spirit is calling you to do in a moment and leading the congregation there. Yeah. One, if you're not practicing that at home, that's impossible. Like if you're not doing that in your prayer closet, you shouldn't expect you can then go do it in front of a hundred people, yeah, a thousand people, however many people. But if you also are afraid, what if I fought I'm in my purest of hearts, if I'm trying to follow the spirit and I get it wrong, will I be punished?

SPEAKER_00 18:46

That's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

And I and I think I think that's like because of the priority we put on excellence and musicianship, which I'm a big proponent of, a very big proponent of, it's so important. But there also has to be just this kind of understanding because once you've led worship for a while, it's not as much of a risk. Just like honestly, at this point in my life, if God was like, hey, I want you to go be a, I don't know, a book writer or something, I don't want to do that. Maybe now that I've said it, I don't know. But like, but like I don't want to do that. But if he called me to, I've never written a book before in my life. I don't like writing things down unless they're songs, honestly. But I know, like, well, you're at I'm leading worship right now, so this is wild. I would have never experienced that. So it's kind of this piece of knowing even as I'm leading worship, I'm comfortable with like, man, he's asking me to do what right now in this moment? Wait, we're gonna stop everything in this huge moment. Like, well, okay, I'm taking that risk because I know his voice very well. It's like I've also failed at that. And there have been times where I've killed a moment in a worship set and been like, oh, that was me. I missed it. Like, but I had safe places to do that.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Right. Let me ask you that. I want to push on that a little bit because that is a big fear. It's not so much the musical aspect. Am I gonna be able to um I gonna be able to be successful just musically? It is the weight, you feel that weight when you step up on that stage and you are the leader of worship for your church, whether you carry the worship pastor title or you're the main worship leader, there is a mantle of heaviness that you carry on to that stage. Um, I would love for you to maybe open that just up a little bit more about having to learn how to carry heavy moments, even when you probably you didn't think you were ready to, or maybe I'm too young. I you don't understand. I'm you know, somebody older should be for handling this moment in the worship service. Do you have any of those types of situations you can you can draw from?

Carrying Weight On Stage And Obedience

SPEAKER_01 20:37

All plenty of them. I remember my first night of worship I led um as being over the campus I was at, and I it was my very first one. The pastor that was over that campus um was awesome and so kind. And I remember coming to him, and our nights of worship were usually about an hour, 30 minutes, two hours somewhere in there. And up until that time, we pretty much had a minute by minute. So we were knew it were gonna happen was gonna happen the entire time. And I felt like the Lord only gave me five songs, and I only got five songs, and so I came to my pastor and I was like, I this might be really bad. And I I don't have a backup plan because what I felt the Lord tell me was basically I was like, Well, Lord, what if you don't what if something doesn't happen and now this only goes for five songs worth of music? Like, what if that happens? And he's like, I was like, what can my backup plan be? And the Lord very clearly was like, You don't need a backup plan. If I don't show up, it's not worth being there. So you do what I asked you to do, and if I and if you look like a fool, well that's that's fine. And honestly, you gotta get comfortable with that a little bit. I'm okay with it. Like, like I would, yeah. And so I remember going to my pastor though, and what he told me was so encouraging. He said, Matthew, if we sing those five songs and we're done, I would rather you be obedient to what the Lord asked than do anything else. Wow. And that gave me a confidence. That gave me a confidence in that moment to really pursue what the Lord wanted to do in a room above all else for the room. Like, because that's I mean, that's what we're supposed to be doing. But that takes a courage and a boldness, and it takes seasoned leaders looking at you and saying, like, you got this, and even if you fall on your face, we're gonna talk about it. Like, there is there is like you need to learn from it. Like, failure is only great if you're learning from it. And so, like, we'll learn from it afterwards, and there's plenty of those. But I remember that specifically because it gave me a confidence, and now I share that story with other worship pastors because it encourages people to be like, oh, because you want to know what that night went for two hours and we could have kept going. Like, and I didn't know that was gonna happen. I was nervous, like and 30 minutes before talking with my pastor, and the Lord showed up, and so that that was one of those moments that was really, really huge. I'm there's a million more.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

But now you and you're a you're a songwriter. I am, and I've sung some of your songs. Oh, beautiful. This is no, it's just beautiful, you know, to be led by those that have come behind you. Like I was in the room the other night when my boy was leading his students kind of snuck in the back. And if you see the phone, I'm holding I I had to record it for mom.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

You got to, you got to.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

I'm recording it for mom, but you can't be angry if you didn't care for it. But you can see that it starts to shake because I can't imagine. I'm being led in worship by my boy, right? Yeah, um, but when it comes to songwriting, um your your daddy's written a few songs. I don't know how many. I've never asked him, but there's and there's a lot of I'm curious for you, what's the songwriting journey been like for you? Yeah, um, and is that how does how do you how do you interact with your dad? Because on that subject, because he's yeah, I mean, he's written number one, lots of number ones, you know, and uh a brilliant songwriter, but you've got your own expression, you've got your own thing. It sounds to me like you're like, I'm gonna do my thing. I mean, if you're like my my boys and my girl, they're like, We love you, dad, we respect you. I'm doing my this is my path. Oh, for sure. So you got to discover it on your own. So how does that work for you?

Songwriting, Fathers, And Finding Your Voice

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Like, well, so I I kind of I got a lot of the I'm gonna do it on my own out before I got saved. So I really pursued that pretty hard. So I got a lot of that out, and um I remember very early with my dad. I knew because he was my dad, there will be times where people treat me differently. I will I have access to him, like, which I'm so grateful for. But the enemy plays games with that in everyone's mind. And I remember the Lord when I was in college, probably sophomore college, he helped me settle that, and I'm so grateful for it. And the Lord very clearly said, like, I needed him to be your dad to do what I need to do through you. It's not about him and it's not about you, it's about what I want to do, and I needed that. If you don't see it that way, you're not going to be able to experience the fullness of what I anticipated. Wow. And so I since then it was always like that's my greatest strength, is he's my dad. Yeah. And there's there's all the fears of nepotism and that and all the different things. It's like, but we're not building our kingdom. Yeah. Like it's not our kingdom we're building. That's when that's a big problem. Right. When it becomes y'all's kingdom, and it's like, it's it's just not that. Yeah. And so I've I am so grateful. I'm so grateful to have him as a father. He's an amazing dad. And in songwriting, I remember the first time I had picked him up. I was at school in South Carolina. He had flown into Atlanta and I was picking him up. We were driving back, and I think I sheepishly in the passenger seat was just like, Man, how do you write how do you write a song? Like, how do you do that? Like, like just kind of like nervous a little bit, asking my dad, and and he told me he was like, just write down everything the Lord's doing in your life right now in just sentences. And then, like, and then when we get there, I'll look at it. And so I just wrote things down and I'm so discouraged. Like, I'm like, this is just random words on a page. This is awful. And he took it. I remember he took it and he was like, huh. Moved around words, and just kind of as a songwriter does, took what I had and made it into a song. And I wish I still had that piece of paper. I know I just like every time I tell that story, I so badly wish I had that piece of paper. But from there, he showed me I could do it. So he encouraged me to say, like, no, you can do this. And from that point on, I there'd always be a little bit of a song in my head or my heart or somewhere, and I would think of things. And I remember coming to him another time and saying, I just don't, I was discouraged. And I remember saying, I just don't think I'm a songwriter. And he was like, Maybe not. He's like, But whenever you have fresh revelation, what do you usually think? And I'm like, That's probably a song. Yeah. And that is, that's how I'm wired. I I when I when the Lord reveals something to me, I respond with a song. And if it's that's why there are more songs that no one will ever hear, yeah. Some of the songs that sometimes people hear, then I'm like, I didn't think people were gonna hear that one. That was a yeah, that was a moment for us. Like, but because that's just how how I respond to them a lot of the times. And so from there, songwriting. Um, I was talking with a college student that over at the Kings the other day about the songs. He was like, How do you write these song songs? And I'm like, I'm like, I have y'all to look up to. I'm like, how do I write these songs? Like, how do I write songs like you guys? Like, that's where my mind's at. But um, I was I really wanted to be so clear with him that it's not about like worship music is not about me writing a great song, it's about me communing with the Lord and just responding to what he's doing in my life. Beautiful. And I kind of love that I'm probably more surprised about songs that get sung than I am expectant for them to be sung, I think. Because there's a song I got to be a part of called I Need You. And you could think, like, oh, were you like writing and writing and writing? It's like, no, I was dealing with immense shame. And in that season, the Lord told me to like if I worship in a quiet time, I didn't want my quiet times to become songwriting sessions, but I felt like he was giving me songs, and so he was like, Whenever you sit down to worship, don't worry about whether or not it's a song you need to write, just worship me and just hit record, and I'll let you know what to go back and listen to. And I remember that day, I was dealing with shame in a heavy way, and I just said, God, I need you. And I the whole chorus was there, and then I was on the way to a songwriting. The Lord said, I want you to listen to this. Listen back. And as I was there, the chorus and then the song came in probably 10 minutes. But I can't really take credit for a lot of that. You know, you're like showing up. I can't know. I can take credit for um pursuing the Lord in a in a low moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

So I want to I wanna I know what I I assume I'm gonna know what your answer is to this, but I do think it's a question that every young songwriter in the church has to ask because it's I think it's it it it it takes the veil off what drives us and motivates us to write music. That if you continue to write music the rest of your life and no one ever sang those songs but you, would that be enough for you? Would that would that fulfill what God has put in your heart as a songwriter?

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Yes, yes. I want to be given honesty. I don't want to just be like, oh, I want you to do it. And so I want to think about it, like just kind of challenge myself on it a bit, but yes, because I mean, songwriting for me is for my kids now. Like I have more goofy songs I sing around the house like with them, like right before I left today. It's there's love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Obey your mother and use those. Like we have songs for everything, like because songs stick. And so I use them around the house to help my kids now, like to learn things. And so, yes, because there's so much reward in all of it. Um, but what's what's really neat, Rita Springer one time was we read a songwriting thing and she was talking about it and talking about like songs, and she said that she asked the Lord how he views. Us writing songs, which honestly was one of those moments where I was like, why have I not asked that? That's such a low-hanging fruit question to ask the Lord. And her response was, um, a lot of times we view them as grenades. How many people, especially writing for the church, like, how many people can this connect to? And not in a bad way, like you wanted to connect with a majority of your congregation, not just one little piece of it. Um, but she said, What the Lord said was he views them a little bit more like arrows. They all have an intended purpose and they'll hit multiple people, but they all have an intended purpose. And so songwriting for me is prophetic in a lot of ways, whether I'm writing for congregations or anyone, because I always I always think God has somebody on the other side of this. And I might not see it, but I know there's somebody that might need this. And so some of those songs stay with me for five or six years, and then the Lord's like, Hey, go back to that one right now. Yeah, and we just released a song called Known by You that we I was right, I wrote for like five years, and I just kept it and kept noodling with it a little bit on and off, not thinking a ton about it. And then the day the Lord wanted it to be finished, it was finished, and then we got to release it, and it's beautiful in all the ways, but that song has an intended purpose. Yeah, there's somebody I believe that song was written for. A lot of people will be ministered to you by it, but that drives me because um, there are too many songs that I've written that I thought should go nowhere. That someone's come up to me and been like, you don't know what an impact that had in my life. And I go, I'm so sorry you had to hear that song. Like, like I'm like, that's not a great one. But the Lord has a purpose, totally. It's like trusting him in that too. Yeah, yeah.

Arrows Not Grenades: Purposeful Songs

SPEAKER_02 31:38

It's like what John Larson said on one of our episodes, you know, the the the power's in the seed, not in the sower. Yeah, you know, like and when you put those things into the ground as just and I I always say like I the invitation to create is is an invitation to be an image image bearer of God. We're image bearers, and it's like he's a creative uh creative God and he's a maker, he makes and he gives us the agency to make. And the interesting thing is when we make things, we're being invited into something that's not just a product, but we're being invited into intimacy with God. Yes. So the the the real beauty is in that, not in the reach. Yes. It's in the right, not in the reach. You know, it's like don't you can't steward what's not in your hand. Yeah, but you can steward that expression, you can steward that moment with your kids, you can steward that thing. You can't make the seed grow. No, you can't make it rain. That's right. You can't make it grow. That's it. And how many times do you know those things? And I think it's it's being faithful to show up in those moments and make something, you know, not settle for signing the Hallmark card. Yes, yes, but making your own card. Like, I've got something to say. I'm gonna do something that costs me something.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

For sure. I mean I think enjoying the Lord, like I want to enjoy him in everything that I'm doing to my fullest. That means I need to partner with him in everything I'm doing. If the creator of the universe, the ultimate creative being, ever anything to ever exist, wants to partner with us to create something, the joy should be in creating with him. And that's enough joy. Yeah. Like, and so if you want something more than that, you're missing what's right in front of you. Yeah. I think so many times. And the Lord wants that's how he wants to do it. He wants us to enjoy working with him as we create things and steward the earth and put beautiful music all over the place, but he wants to do it with us. The moments that we start thinking, like, well, what's it gonna do and where's it gonna go? Because that's the win. He's like, Man, the win was the time we got to spend making this thing. Like, and I'll do I'll make it grow if I want it to grow, and if I don't, I won't. I really have your best interest at heart. Yeah. Like And what if it's just for him? What if it's just between you and Jesus?

SPEAKER_00 33:49

I mean, how beautiful. Why why why is that a bad thing? Exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

The Lord's saying, Hey, can we keep this one for us? Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Just like I bet you have songs for your wife. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

No one else just between you and us.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

100%. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

It's because it's a it's an intimate relationship. That's why some of those songs, like kind of like need you, is one of those when other people started singing it. And I was like, ooh, wait a minute. Yeah, yeah. Hold on. Like, I was like, that was for us. That's private. That's it. It feels a little bit. And then you have to remember, like, man, if the Lord could possibly do in somebody else's heart what he was doing in mine in that moment. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Let me ask you one question here that it's a little self-serving for the worship table. Yeah, yeah. Um, because we do believe in in multi-generational um worship leaders that we feel like that don't quit just because you get to 30 or you get to 40 or 50 or 60 even, that that doesn't mean that you are disqualified from leading worship. In fact, you should be getting better because it's just wisdom on top of wisdom. And we talked about repetition early on. I mean, you know, you start adding up the hours when you're someone my age and you go, wow, I have I would have never thought I would put that many hours into doing what I'm doing. And so there should be a payoff for that the older you get. Um, is there, can you remember a real uh a conversation with a mentor or an older worship leader that was really important to you that that maybe helped you go, yeah, you know what? I really needed that word in this time because we do believe that without the the uh older generation speaking into the younger generation, you guys you you don't have a platform to you don't have shoulders to stand on. You should be picking up where we leave off instead of having to start your journey from scratch.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

I completely agree. I there's too many to count. I mean, from you. I remember a service that and I'm a little bit spoiled because you're my uncle, but but I remember I remember an online service that we were leading over COVID that you called me and you were giving me feedback on my vocal and some of that, and yeah, it was huge. Like it was huge for me because I'm like, you what? Like you paid attention to be which you're my so it's a little bit different, but honestly, I think sometimes people think, well, they wouldn't want to know, or I they wouldn't want it's like, no, no, no, we need someone to step in sometimes and go, like, hey, can I help you with that? I remember when I that's the greatest possible thing anybody could ever say is like because what you have is you have um perspective. That's what it like time gives you perspective, and wisdom is taking like why I can stand on your shoulders, hopefully, y'all's shoulders, hopefully, is because you've experienced things, have perspective, which brought you wisdom. Now, if I trust that that is wisdom and allow the Lord to partner with that, I hopefully don't have to go through a lot of those things. And so I think the greatest conversations I've ever had with um seasoned worship pastors and leaders are the honest, the most honest ones that like, hey, this is how I messed this up, like, or this is how it wasn't great, or people um addressing the situation. I remember there was a worship leader that came in. Um Jeremy Riddle came in for one of our conferences, and I was just chauffeuring him around, which was the coolest thing in the world. I was like, this is awesome. And but I asked him questions. So I was like, hey, what advice do you have for a young worship leader? And I still to this day remember he was like, it doesn't matter what the set looks like, taking just two seconds to say, Holy Spirit, is there anything different you would like to do now that we're here in this moment? I know we prepared for it before, but is there? And I this I don't remember if he said this or if it's what I just say all the time. I quote him on it all the time. But I remember like nine times out of ten, we usually stay with what the Holy Spirit and I talked about like earlier in the week. But for that one time, that's the service that somebody comes to me afterwards and like, how did you know to sing that? I was singing it in the car, like, and I needed to hear that today. It's just that little question. And so there are those moments with like worship seasoned worship pastors that I just don't I haven't thought through yet. Yeah, I'm not, and honestly, if he doesn't tell me that in a car ride, I'm I probably go another 10 years, and then maybe the Lord reveals it to me, or who knows how it happens. But I think I think it's on both ends of like there's just so much wisdom to be shared, so many learnings that would take five to ten years that can happen in a short conversation between season worship pastors.

Multi-Generational Wisdom And Risk

SPEAKER_02 38:19

And you have I mean you I just thank you for sharing that. You have this spirit that says, like, I coach me up, like I really want to know. That that is just so like you said, it's two-way. You mentioned um kiddos earlier. You have three kids, right? Three kids. Three kids, okay. I I remember vividly, minor almost grown, fully grown now, um, a couple of adults and and and a teenager still in home, but uh I remember the crucible of building a very rapid growing, fast-paced, ever-changing, high octane ministry life that I was in. And then I also had like a a pretty internal, ambitious nature, just wired up to to kind of do stuff. Um and then I had two at that time two little ones, you know, three years old and 18 months. And there were some pretty pretty difficult walls I had to hit for me personally to learn how to manage the expectations of the organization, my primary calling to lead and serve my children and my wife, and then this motor that is always going. Like they're you know. So talk about what you're learning, what you have learned.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

I'm really in it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Like right, you're right in the thick of it. Like, what would you say to another worship leader, worship pastor that's in your space, that's leading, they're they're covering lots of territory, they got a lot of responsibility. What does that look like for you? How do you how do you manage that?

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Uh they're my number one priority. Yeah. So I have the ability to shape three minds for the glory of God. And from the day they were born until the day the Lord releases them from my care, or whenever that, however that works. I don't know. I'm early in this again. So but that's that's my priority. Yeah. And so everything I do shapes that. Now, the Lord's not gonna ask me to do something in my calling that would take away from my ultimate priority. Because again, like you said, my ultimate calling is them. But your ambition could. It could. And I think that those are the places where I think we get to wrestle with the Lord and say, like, God, you've given me this motor. Like, you've given me. I'm like, well, I want to do this project, I got this project, I have this project. I also have a full, very full-time job. And then three littles, it's like, well, the Lord's like, well, what am I asking you to do today? Because if you're partnering with me in this day and if you're following what I'm asking you to do in this moment today, that should all be fine. Because he knows me better than I know myself. He knows what my kids know need better than I know. He knows what my job needs better than I know. It's all just falling in step with him. And I think some of the things that you have to have practicals around it, especially when it's time. It's really time with kids. And I won't sacrifice that any like I won't sacrifice that. And my kids, I bring them with with me to things when it's appropriate. When it's appropriate. We've all been there where it's like, why is there a four-year-old around?

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Has it forced you to have to lean into time management in a different way? Immensely. Like how you handle your time that you have to put your hand to the job.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. I I mean, so I lead our young adults' services, and so every Tuesday night I'm leading a service. Well, before that, I was in from nine to five on those Tuesdays, and that just changed within the last two months. So, one thing that I'm really working towards, everyone I work with is very used to scheduling meetings with me from nine to one, rightfully so, because everyone else is in the office. I'm the one, only one leading the service. But I need to see my kids in the day, and that's every week. And so I block out nine to one. And there are moments, so many, it's only been a couple weeks now. So, but there's time so many times where I'm like, well, um, you know, I could go in at 11. That's not that early. Like, I can just do it this once, and just for this one meeting. We all know it's not just that one meeting. And there's for sure, if your ox is in the ditch, you gotta do it, you gotta do it, those kind of things. But really prioritizing that, which only helps my marriage too.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Like, I was gonna say, I'm sure that's conversations with your with your sweetheart. Like just kind of going, how do we meet? Yeah. Oh, I know for Leah, Leah has been like her her motto. We've been married 32 years. Yeah. And her motto is live slow, drink tea. Yep. I love that. Like it's pretty, like she's I'm gonna be with the Lord for a few hours today. So um you go set your hair on fire and do what you need to do. But so that I mean that tension has kept us like in a in a much better spot.

Family, Ambition, And Time Stewardship

SPEAKER_01 43:04

So Jesse, my wife is a little very similar, and it helps me because like on days like yesterday, yesterday was a Tuesday. Well, from nine to one, I was like, I'm with my my kids. Good for you, and just I I have to be with him, and I fail at that a lot. I'm learning a ton in that area. But also, really, my son is he's four now, so he he's starting. I just realized and he's starting to know I work at church, and he loves church, which I'm so grateful for. Um, but he loves loves church, always wants to be there. But sometimes he's like, Well, are you going to church again? And I'm like, Well, I'm going to work. And then he got me with it really last week. He said, You work at church. And I was like, You're right. Oh man, we're here now. And I just sat down and was like, I work at church. Yeah. And sometimes daddy has to go, and we've got to have a really good conversation. But I was very intentional with like, hey, it's important that I go do this because this is what daddy's calling is. But daddy's favorite thing in the world is spending time with you. And it's always more important to be with you. But dad has a job. Like, there's also those kind of conversations of like, it's good that I go do this because I'm showing my son like this is what I'm responsible for too at the same time. And so, which is hard and does weird things to your heart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

But you know, and if you feel like your your leadership wouldn't understand the season of life you're in, uh, if sometimes you're just afraid to ask because your leadership typically isn't asking you to put in more hours, they want you healthy. Yes. You know, what's what's the goal for a worship pastor is to get to the weekend full, not empty. Yes, not struggling to crawl across the finish line. You should be getting to the weekend full of what God wants you to do and what He's been doing in your life. So I always encourage anyone that's watching this or listening to this, if you feel like your schedule's out of control, you don't have enough time with your family, go to your leadership, have the conversation. You know, most likely, unless you're living under a tyrant. A tyrant, exactly, they're gonna understand and they're gonna help you. Um, and that's why I'm I'm glad a lot of churches are hiring HR departments now. That that wasn't a thing when I first started in this. No. You know, it was every man for himself. But you know, thankfully now they're HR departments where you just telling me before the the paternity leave that that you get, you know, when you have your kids. I'm like, we never had that.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

And and it is important too, I think, to be aware leading teams all these years, and it's sometimes there's a tendency, you know, for a little martyr, martyr syndrome. Sure. Where we're we're all falling on the sword, you know, and we're like, but when you get under the hood of what actually how time is actually being handled, you realize, oh, there's a lot of there's this is we could probably tune this a little bit more. Um, and there's actually margin. And so don't be surprised if you go to leadership, creative leader, and say, Hey, I need I need more time. I'm I'm over, and they go, Okay, well, let's just let's do a week audit. Let's let's talk about your week and how you're handling your days.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

That's a really good thing to do, though. That's exactly what I was gonna say. I honestly would recommend before you go to leadership, take your week and get honest with honest with yourself. We're creatives, we can't do that. We waste a lot of time. Listen, we don't like to talk about it, but it's true. And and there have been more times, like throughout the years of being a worship pastor, that I'm like, I just don't have time to do these things. And the best thing I can do is go to my calendar and get honest with myself. Like, how long does it actually take me to do that? Where can I? Can I be more efficient? And then bringing that, especially if you're in a rough situation with a rough oversight or something like that, if you can bring them, hey, I've audited myself. This is really happening. And then bring invite the Lord into it. I think so few times we we mess this up because it's just the cheat code. When you're looking at that schedule, just a quick prayer of Lord, I represent me going over the schedule as a sacrifice of praise to you. The Lord inhabits the praise of his people. Then you're partnering with him looking at your schedule. He'll probably show you where you could have gotten that. Yeah, yeah. You can't wake up at 11, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Like watching Netflix is probably the Holy Spirit can inform you on the weekend in the last moment, but he can also inform your week.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Yeah, he can. He's good at that. He's great at it. Very good at it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Well, man, I just love your spirit as a young leader, just the wisdom beyond your years. And so I got a final question, unless you have something else, Andy. I think so. One question is, you know, Uncle Andy, um, you know, Papa Mark, um, me, I'm in somewhere in between. Um what do you think the younger gener generation, if you could speak on behalf of the 20s and 30s uh generation of leader, creative leaders, and you could tell us what do you want us to know?

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Man, I could tell y'all on behalf of on behalf of the on behalf of those you lead.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Let's pretend like my son, who's 16, is in your ministry, in your worship ministry. Okay, and and and you've walked through what you've walked through, and you're seeing the trends in worship around the country, and the and you see us as leaders, what how what do you want us to know?

SPEAKER_01 48:23

I think um if you can just keep reminding every young worship leader that the main thing is the main thing, and then it's about people worshiping Jesus and getting to know him and everything else, trends will change, it all changes. But what you guys know more than anything is that is the key. Like everything else can fall to the wayside. If you forget that there are people on the other side of that mic you're on that need to experience the presence of Jesus, and your ultimate job is to pastor them into that, the rest kind of fall just falls into place because the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_04 48:56

Yeah.

Healthy Rhythms, Leadership, And Audits

SPEAKER_01 48:56

And so I I think too often we get so wrapped up in all these other things, which are awesome and great tools, production and execution, records. I love the fact there's tune live tune. I benefit from it greatly. But like, but if if I ever lose focus, and it's so easy to do because that's what the enemy wants. It's those little, just it's the simple things. Like you were saying earlier, like how many people could call and be like, Well, how do you, I don't know, what's a gain? Or like so just that you're like, Oh, well, yeah, it's the it's just this. It feels so simple just to say, like, hey, remember, you're pastoring people to worship Jesus. That's really what you're doing, and it's that simple and that complex in different ways. But I think keeping the why in front of people is so important because there's too many things that just steal our attention that aren't bad things, yeah. But like, well, should I post my set on Instagram? How many cams can we put up to be able to capture this? It's like those things are awesome, and people are being ministered to through those things. But if ever your focus just gets a little here, the Lord, the Lord doesn't like the Lord won't deal with that. That's right. The Lord will or kick you back. And so, as many just seasoned worship pastors, wise worship pastors that could just continually, continually model it. Yeah, just model it and I mean actions speak loud on words every time. So if if you can, if every time I see a worship pastor that truly will stop a moment and do something a little bit uncool for the sake of a room, I'm like, Yeah, that's the real deal. That's one that's one of them. Like, that's one of them because we've seen moments where you just blow through the set and you're like, I don't think the room was connected with that. But it's like, well, it was a great sounded killer, and it's like, it's not what we're doing. Yeah, it's not what we're doing. And so keeping the Y in front of people.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

That's beautiful, man. Thank you. You're not only leading the next generation, but you're leading up too. You're leading our generation. That's right, very kind. So you're that's a that's a pastoring moment for all of us, no matter no matter the situation we're in. So I think thanks again, man, for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Thank you for letting me do this again. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun, yeah, man.