Redefining Success In Worship Ministry

Tickets sold, packed rooms, radio spins, and album sales seemed to check all the boxes for success.

Until the quiet of weekly church life exposed a better question: what if success is not found in applause, but faithfulness? 

We share the story behind that shift—how moving from artist autonomy to serving under authority forces you to trade the spotlight for shepherding and the setlist for people.

We unpack the hard edges of humility and dig into the shadow side of ambition.  Looking at how God uses the crushing to purify calling so your gift flows from acceptance, not for it.

From that foundation, we lay out practical steps to define a clear worship culture, create low-risk development spaces, and give your team real reps.

Ready to rethink success in worship ministry and build leaders who outlast you? Press play, then share your biggest takeaway. 

If this helped you, subscribe, leave a review, and pass it to a friend who needs the encouragement.

The Worship Table is a sacred space for worship pastors and creative leaders—a place of rest, renewal, and real connection. Just as the Lord’s Table welcomes all, this Table exists to refresh those who pour out week after week. Through mentorship, shared experiences, and deep community, we invite you to step away from isolation and into a space of belonging, encouragement, and growth. You don’t have to lead alone—there is a place for you here.

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Transcript

Setting The Question: What Is Success?

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hey everybody, it's the worship table guys, and uh it's Mark, this is Michael, and this is Andy, and uh we're just gonna talk a little bit today about how we define or redefine success because obviously we've been in ministry for a long time. So over the journey of our seasons of ministry and through all that we've been a part of, um just it I think it's an interesting topic to kind of talk about what we view as success now and what we would have viewed success being when we started out, you know, or or maybe midway through all of what we've done, because I would say that it's changed I know it's changed for me, but I'm curious, like like like Andy, what what what did you consider success when you started out? Like when I first met you in Mississippi, and how old were you? 20. 20.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Yeah, would have been 1987, I think. You you were 20 yeah, or 1986.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

20 and you look 13. Yeah. You look like Michael J. Fox. I was the first time we were all like, he looks like the back to the future guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Well, I did. Okay. Yeah. Maybe not so much today. I I I don't know, you know, um when I I felt I've always felt the call of worship ministry on my life. I didn't know what to call that back in the 80s, you know, being part of a Southern Baptist church and leading the hymns every week. We I didn't really consider that worship ministry, but yeah, there was an anointing on me that I couldn't describe back then that I recognized and felt, maybe felt's a better word.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

And maybe some other uh leaders around me at our church recognized and were like, hey, you're you're good at this, you should keep doing it. Um, but I didn't choose that route right off the bat. And I think that's, you know, it just shows you God's hand in your life is, you know, uh that's always guiding you whether you know it or not. And uh, but eventually, after, you know, what, 15 years of for him, a dozen years before him, I was like, okay, I recognize what that is now. Um, it is a call of worship leading on my life. And I I led worship. You were there at um uh Eastern Shore Christian Center. Absolutely. It was like on a Sunday night. Yeah. And we both, I remember a bus, I'd been asked to lead worship that night. Yeah. And I reluctantly said yes. Yeah. And the Holy Spirit showed up. And I remember you and I both walk in the car going, Yeah, this is probably what you should be doing long term, right? Yeah. Was this pre-forhem or post-forhem? This is that was in the middle of forehand. It was probably 96, 97, maybe. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

It was really at a time when for him was kind of at its apex.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

I mean, we were we were touring and traveling. It was and we we all attended the same church uh in Daphne, Alabama, and Andy led worship. I remember that's it's interesting because.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Yeah, it was a Sunday night, yeah. Well, and so uh that started my journey on going, okay, let's explore what this is, get off the road eventually, become a worship pastor, help start a church with a friend of mine in in Orlando in 2000. And here's where it's what really started the the crossroads was for me was success to me was what I knew of for him, right? People are gonna pay a ticket, they're gonna pack out an auditorium to come see us, and that's your definition of success is if people pay you good money to come hear you sing. Well, at my church, nobody came. You know, I mean, here I am for you singing for free, yeah, and the doors are open. And hey, we're here in Orlando every Sunday morning at 10:30. You should show up like you did at the For Him concert the night before, and nobody was coming. And so that that was a real internal battle for me of wow, I must be a failure at this because no one wants to come hear me sing. Wow. Of course, it took me years to realize the difference between serving a church and being a an artist that serves my own needs. Yeah. And so that was kind of the beginning of my road of redefining success as a as a worship pastor. Yeah. And in the success in worship, to where I'm I'm still defining it today. I feel like I have a better grasp on it now than I did, you know, in 2001. Yeah. Um, but for me, you know, uh success was the the biggest part of this of success for me was learning how it's not about me. Yeah. You know, I and and we're gonna cover that on a lot of these podcasts, is it's not about me. And there's you have to work through that. Yeah. And when you're young, you're full of, you know, you're full of energy and full of self-confidence, and you're gonna take the world by storm. And you know, everybody should love my music and my original songs. And you know, when you start defining that as success, well, you turn yourself into an artist. You're not a worship pastor much anymore. So um, I would just say, and we we can expound on that further, but for me, that was the beginning of my redefining success.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Which I I was right there with you. So I mean, so much of that I was right beside you, we were both serving, or we were we didn't we wouldn't call that serving and for him. We were both two of the four guys in for him as the artist.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

And it's like that was our identity. Our identity was do you like my music? Do you like our songs? Do you you know what I mean? For me, was do you like the songs I write? You know, it's like I mean, it was, you know. Well, what about you, Mike? Because I mean, I heard a story earlier today that that someone's like you were singing at a in like an as a 13-year-old and like at a mall or something? I mean, was it a Chuck E. Cheese pizza or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

There's nothing that'll confuse somebody's calling more than entering a vocal competition as a as a Christian kid. Like you're you're gonna we're gonna help you define success in your calling at the mall.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Was that second place? Was that a success to you, or did you was it first?

SPEAKER_00 5:53

It was absolute failure.

unknown 5:55

Okay.

From Concert Fame To Empty Church Rows

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Abject failure. If you are not first, you're last. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, I have a whole thing that I've worked out over the years, you know, competition and calling. Like, yeah, that competition is fun in games with your friends and on the golf course. It's not in your calling. So when you like are being evaluated and mixed up in kind of like competitions with singing, and you're called to be a worship pastor and a and a writer and all of that, and then you find yourself leading in a church, you got to kind of parse through that uh over time about what is actually happening. Because, like for me, of course, you guys were a part of my journey of watching artists that were in front of me. Yeah. Um, and because I had a musical gift as a little kid, like I could play and sing and hear stuff and play it back, and I would sing in church, and it, you know, there was just something on it as a little kid.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

And so what that turned into was like this kind of westernized mindset of well, success looks like you making albums, you hitting the radio, you touring on a bus, and then uh you do it rinse and repeat until that footprint is as big as it can possibly be.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

I mean, that's what so that measure of success was what I had in my mind as a as a you know, even though I'm like I'm leading worship in college as I'm getting my finishing my music degree. And so over time of of a of a of a very short touring, you know, session work kind of career, being called into the local church. And then when you get into the local church, still having to parse out what is success really, what is success in this context? Yeah, really, like, and we can say the right thing, but internal, the internal dialogue, we can believe something completely different. Yeah. And we get twisted up and torn up about things when they don't. And so I I mean, there's there's a whole lot of stories in terms of me reframing my identity as I went through. Um, and it was like I had to turn loose of some things, and going to the local church felt like it initially, like I know I'm supposed to do this, but there's also like, am I am I quitting on the thing? I mean, like, you don't ever quit, you know? We don't quit, we go after it. Am I quitting on the thing that I thought was going to be successful?

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

And then I get into the local church context, and I just start creating in my local context and serving in that local context. It was Christ Fellowship in Palm Beach. And God growing me and teaching me and working stuff out of me and having little kids and learning the ambitious side of what I was wired up to do and make and produce. And I think when you're talking about, there is a season for for building.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Like we have that energy for a reason, like to go after stuff and find the edges. Like, I think that's that's not a bad thing. It's just it gets purified, and you over time you realize, oh, like I'm I'm operating in my gift because I'm accepted and I'm loved, not to earn it.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

I'm operating in my gift not to be affirmed, uh, because I've already been affirmed.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

I can be free to just do this. And what's so funny is when you kind of turn loose of all that, and I'm serving in my local church, and I thought, well, it's okay. It's for this. And you know who came through and grabbed some of those songs and passed them along? It was you. Oh, yeah. You remember that?

SPEAKER_01 9:33

You're a young worship. I was a pastor at Christ Fellowship.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

And you were there, yeah. You were there. You came through, you guys came through for something, and then you had heard some songs that we did, and you said, Hey, what? Yeah. And you passed them along, I think of your brother. Yeah, through integrity music. To Mike. Yeah. Mike, and he was at integrity at the time.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

They were looking for a guy to fill in for a worship leader artist of theirs that was backing out.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Backing out. And I stepped in.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

You stepped in at the last moment.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

At the last minute, and led a live record for integrity. For integrity. It's wild. And they that I said, Well, guys, these aren't any of my songs. Yeah. And they were like, so. And I said, And I said, Well, and they agreed, I I think I brought two of mine into that project last minute, and we put it together. And then that started this thing that the song started migrating out. But it just goes to show you now, you know, after doing it for 25 years in local church, it feels like success has been reframed as like I've heard it said, the ones who know me the best respect and love me the most. Um, and and there's this sense of like my family and my my freedom and calling in that, and then everything flows from that place. The ambition side, the shadow side of ambition has started to be worked out. And then uh you just get free to just I would say it almost has to be beat out of it. Yeah, beat out. You know, I say worked out, that's a nice way, but like yeah, it's more like crushed out, maybe it's like the crushing, crushing out.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

That's a that's a biblical principle. Yeah. That there has to be a crushing and a breaking for God to resurrect that into what he wants it to be. And I I don't want to speak for you, but I feel like we are on this, you know, we had a similar experience where, you know, here and for him, yeah, we created the songs, we recorded the songs, we toured the songs, we put our set list together every night. Yeah. We did what we felt like was best to do. But then we get into church situations where now we have people, we have people over us, right? We do. And we don't get to do that we're under authority. And we don't necessarily get to do what we want to do or do the songs we feel like we want to do that weekend. You're, you know, at some point you have to put yourself under authority, which you and I did not.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

I was gonna say, I want to be in that room. Like, you know, those conversations like you know, you're used to people like I mean, you're an artist, you're rolling into town, and people are taking care of you. Yeah, like they're taking care of you. They want to be in the room, you know. What drink do you want, Mr. Harris? Yeah, you know, what do you need? And and then you get in a a role. What was that like? Like you can you take take us back to that?

Competition, Calling, And Local Church

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Well, I can't say you know, I can just tell you there's there were times, many, many times, where in a group setting with leaders, this was the song here, okay. Here that we've chosen the songs we're gonna sing, here's how we're gonna do them, here's how we want the service to go. And we, me with my experience, I'm going, This isn't gonna work. It's not gonna work. Or I have a better idea. Yeah. Should I push for it?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

You know, do I want to be that guy that always has the better idea at the table? Because, you know, you know what I used to do. And they would acknowledge that as well. They'd go, you know, sometimes it's hard to lead you because we know intrinsically you're looking at this going, yeah, this is not gonna work. I know what, I know how to do this. And so there's a there, there is a you have to take a deep breath. If you're gonna learn to put yourself under authority, you have to take a deep breath in, let it out, and realize this is not about you. Yeah. This is the calling that you've accepted. And and leadership works best when it's in the right authority line. And you if you, if you, if you constantly play that artist card of like, yeah, but I know this, but I do this, but this is this idea you know is gonna be better because I'm the artist, is that you're still you're still feeding self. You're still feeding that ambition that should be broken out of you, that you don't really learn to become a pastor of people until you put yourself under authority. And you're leading people before the throne of God, not before the throne of Andy. Yeah. You know, yeah. I'm leading the I'm leading people into the presence of Jesus through music, not into the presence of for him. Yeah. And there's a big difference. There's a huge difference. And not that what we ever did in For Him was was lost. It was not a it was not frivolous. It was not something that was that God looked on and went, I don't like that at all. No, it's it's different. It's a totally different thing uh that just took for me a lot of time and honestly a lot of sleepless nights just to go, I don't, this doesn't feel good at all. But you know, again, it's like any discipline. Yeah, it's like going to the gym. You took a breath, it's like I love that, getting off sugar, it's like, you know, it's doing all these disciplines that you know that's right, you're gonna detox them, but you know, you get past a certain point, you're gonna go, wow, I feel really great about this. This really works. And I'm in the best shape of my life spiritually when I put myself under authority. And but here's a little secret is that God always brings that back around. God, God will exalt you in the proper time, right? Humble yourself, therefore, under the mighty hand of God into the proper time, yeah, He will exalt you, He will put you, He will make, He will, He will put you in the place where you're supposed to be. So you don't get to choose when that time is. Only God gets to choose it. And sometimes for, especially for me, I will say this, it took a long time for me to be crushed there under putting myself under leadership. But man, I'm glad I did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

You know, wow. I think guys, and I I'm sitting here thinking, I because success, like, you know, we always hear, how do you measure success? It's hard to measure success as a worship pastor or someone who's fully submitted to Christ because our because I I I had to throw away the ladder. Yeah. Like I had to kind of say, get that thing out of here. It's not, it's not about me climbing a ladder or getting to a certain title or position. I mean, because that's the way the world defines success. I mean, if you're in the corporate structure of the world, and the church has a corporate structure, it's like that's why so many guys that are worship pastors and worship leaders, they they get into this cycle of thinking, well, if I can go from this church to this church, then to this church, and then be in this position at that church, it's like because it's like and it and sometimes it even becomes it depends on how many people I oversee. Like, you know, how big of a deal am I? And it's like, and it's like, and and I realize, man, you gotta, it's like if if my identity is found in my title or where I am on the ladder, I have failed. And because it's the reality is if you're called by God, there's a mantle on your life that God uses to define you. And submission and being fully committed to that mantle is success. Because see, when I'm a young guy, and I mean I I think this is accurate for anybody. When you're young, I mean, when I was 16-year-olds, 16-year-old Mark in my mom and dad's living room, and they asked me to pull out my guitar to play Dallas Holmes Here We Are for friends that came over from church. Success for me was just making it through the whole song. Like because I would stop and go, oh, the wrong chord, you know, it's a little awkward, you know. But but then all of a sudden, you know, so back then that was success. But then as you kind of get involved in what God's called you to, the danger is the ladder because it's like you can start using that as the measurement for success. And let me say, this always makes sense, the climb up, but when something happens and you get moved down, it's like that's the crushing. Because then all of a sudden it's like and people that's a test that comes, and and and and I think that's one of the most difficult tests to pass because it's like that's when you have to find out who you are in Christ, and that's when you discover the mantle that he has on your life. And you don't need a title given to you by a human being to walk in that gifting because people identify you as that.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Like say that again.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

People identify like Andy, people say it's not they you don't need to be executive pastor of whatever for someone to identify what God placed on your life. That's right. Neither do you, Michael, neither do I. It's like, I mean, because it's like Jody would say to me, Well, Mark, um, you're a pastor. I just see it all in you. Like it I think even when I was an artist, I wasn't I was a pastor disguised as an artist. Because I mean, even the for him guys would say, You gotta wait on Mark again because he's out there, he loves talking to people. And I'm like, finally, I realized, well, it's because I I was being Pastor Mark. Yeah, didn't even know that.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Um, but I kind of have realized, no, that my mantle is the thing that brings me the most fulfillment. And it's and it's like I don't need anyone to have to show me how to measure that. I just need to know that I'm bringing glory to God. Success should be defined uh for most of us at our age is calling out the gifts and others, helping a young worship leader stay between the lines and finish strong. Um, or it should be like like when I was young, like you mentioned the word affirmation, I needed affirming. It's the only way I would know that I was getting it right. If I still need affirming by the time I'm 50 or 60 years old, something's wrong with that. That's right. Like that's become the drug. And so there's a there's a moment when you as a leader have to know, no, I I know what I do. I've I've got the craft part figured out. Don't I need no more affirming. I just need to surrender my gift to the Lord and walk in the mantle that he's placed on my life.

Under Authority Versus Artist Autonomy

SPEAKER_03 19:26

Every time I read through the book of Job, I find myself going, Yeah, Job's got a point here. You know, his friends, yeah, they've got a point here. Actually, I think they're all right. Like I look every time I read through, I'm like, you know, they've got a they've got a really good case here. Yeah. And then every time it just nails me when it gets when God finally speaks up and says, And who are you?

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

And did did you? Yeah, did you tell the seas where to stop? Yeah. Like, wow. Who are you? And every time it's a it's a humbling experience for me to remind myself, well, who am I?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Like I'm really in the history of of creation and God's plan, who am I? I I'm just another person saved by the grace of God, who he just decided, I'm gonna give that guy this talent, and I'm gonna put him in this position, and that's his assignment.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

And one day he'll stand before my son and give an account for everything that I gave him to do. And we he's going to call into account those talents that he gave us, and he'll either say, Well done, good and faithful servant, enter into your rest, or he'll say, Depart from me, wicked and lazy servant, where there's weeping and darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth. And the older you get, the more you go through, the more you see how success, material success, uh uh the success of fame and having your name known and and people knowing your music and recognizing you because of your talent or maybe the ministry that you serve in, that that that means nothing in the end. Yeah. All that matters is did I serve the Lord well in the position that he gave me? And that's you do this long enough, and none of us at this table are perfect. We we're still all of us are still struggling in some form or fashion with that definition of success. But I will tell you, the longer you stay in the game, this is why we tell worship pastors, don't quit.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Because you're closer than you think you are.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

And you may, and it may be even the darkest point in your life as a worship pastor, don't quit. Don't quit. Because God has a plan for you. That's good. And it's gonna be revealed to you what true success is in worship ministry and why he gave you this gift and this calling, why you just can't run from it. Yeah. You can't love that. Go ahead, throw it away. Try it. Just try it. And but and God won't let you run. Yeah. He's his seal is is forever. Yeah. You can try and run, but God's already placed his hand and his seal on you. So, you know, you're just making harder on yourself by running. Stay in it and and uh anyway.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Yeah, and don't you think like through the years, um because I'm I'm the same, like words of affirmation is a is a love language for me. Like it's just and um as you get more and more free, I I think you know, that a sense of any kind of sense of entitlement that kind of creeps in of like, well, I've done certain things. Like that's the tendency I think for guys that have been in it a long time. Yeah is we can we can kind of feel like a little bit entitled to whatever privilege we have or whatever honor we think should come our way for whatever we've been a part of. And the reality is anything that's remotely good or any kind of fruit from anything we've ever done, it's all the hand of the Lord. Like there's just no, there's no part of me that can take credit for anything that God's allowed me to be a part of. And so when you get to that place, like I don't know if you guys have ever experienced this. Maybe you experienced it when like there's been times where I've I've led in certain environments, and you're maybe you're transitioning away, or you're um and there's something in you. You if you do a little bit of a heart audit and a thought audit, if we're honest, we go, you know, they didn't really honor the investment. That blessing that came their way from my leadership, I don't know that they really honored that.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

I don't know if you've ever experienced that, but for me, there have been times where and it's like, whoa, you see that creep up and you go, like, and then I get mad, like, I can't even believe that just bubbled up in my heart. Like, I can't believe that. But then it's like you get victory when you name it. And usually that kind of stuff I would only share, you know, with a trusted, you know, and you look put that before the Lord and you get victory, and you go, oh man, like I can move in and out of environments at any given time and bless and and keep on blessing. And I don't have to parse it out. I don't have to parse out encouragement. I don't have to parse out uh joy and leadership and love. I don't have to parse any of that out. It's not transactional. My cup's overflowing. God just keeps pouring it back so I can just be free and not find my reciprocation, not from the people I lead, but from my my relationship with Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Can I give you an example? That's if something happened to me. Um, I'm I mean, this is I'm just gonna bear my my my soul here on this. Um, it was just a few months ago at my church. And I'm I'm my my title is and I'll put stock in title, senior worship pastor in residence at this point at Church on the Move. And so what I'm what am I there for? I'm there to encourage, I'm there to kind of fill in the gaps with the younger worship leaders to help them, yeah, to help them on their journey, to give them wisdom, but also to lead our church in worship and and be a familiar face on the stage. And I I'll never forget our young worship leader, um, worship pastor Micah, who's 25 years old. Uh, we were in rehearsal and there was this transition moment in this in in worship. I was just like, it's not gonna work. It's just and I told him, I said, Michael, this just I don't think this is gonna work. He's like, I really think it is. If you'll hear me out, you know, I have a vision for this. And so we worked out. I'm like, if what's the harm? Yeah, it's not what I would have done, but go ahead and do it, and I'll support you for that. Just go ahead and do it. Go ahead and do it, and I'll ask. So we go through a run-through on on Saturday afternoon before the service, and and the senior pastor and his exec team is sitting out there. And so we get done with service and we go out there to, you know, kind of huddle up and talk about it. And sure enough, senior pastor says, I just didn't like that moment. Uh, I just I thought there'd be a better way. And I just out of my pompousness said, I told Micah that wasn't gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:08

I see you nodding your heads going, and I looked over and I just saw Micah just defeated. Oh, yeah. And and as soon as those pastors left, he looked at me and went, I thought you had my back. And you're talking about crushed. Oh, wow. Like crushed. I'm like, man, I still have a lot to learn. Even at my age and my experience, I have a lot to learn about encouraging and leading. And I mean, I fell on the sword. Yeah. I'm just like, Micah, I want you to know that's never going to happen again. Wow. That was a that was uh um that was hubris of me. That was me throwing my weight around to say, see, I still know better than these young guys. And that's one of the gifts that we have to just continue. That's why I say, don't stop.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yeah.

Throwing Away The Ladder

SPEAKER_03 26:51

I'm still learning. Yeah. I'm still learning how to encourage those that come after me, those that I know are still watching everything that I do. And we can't let our foot off the gas of encouragement. You know, we um I just think that's a lifelong pursuit of dying to self and and sticking to what we know is true about our calling, is let's continue to lift up the name of Jesus and bring those young men and women with us across the finish line.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Can I can I say something? Because I I think there's a really good teaching point here, Andy, with what you did. Um not to you, but but it's to um no, it's it's the season that we're in right now um here at Gateway. Um I've told our worship pastors, and we've said this a lot, um uh you'll you'll not you'll not get in trouble for trying to get outside of the circle for doing something new. Actually, you'll get in trouble for not trying. Okay. Like we're saying, the only way you'll ever learn is if you try something new. And when you fail, you can learn from it, but you'll grow as a leader. And I look at your young worship leader, and he had to try it to learn. Right. And it's like I would say to young worship leaders, you know, the I think part of the challenge, um, and what I would consider success for a young worship leader is learning what it means to lead people in the presence of God. It doesn't have to be perfect. Stay away from performance. Like find that space and and it it does mean, you know, I remember um so Matthew, my son, he came on as a worship pastor uh quite a few years ago at Gateway, straight out of college. And pretty quickly he was asked to be a campus worship pastor, which he was young, he was pretty much the youngest guy we had, and I didn't ask him to be that. There were there were other people that was the campus that said, we want him. And so Matthew he asked me a question. We were having dinner, and he said, Is it okay if I fail? He said, Is there is there space for me not to get it right? And um and I think that sometimes uh churches just their their bar for perfection or for performance is so high that it's like I I I would just say this to to churches and to and and to to anyone that's listening to this hey, the only way your young worship leader is ever going to grow and and develop muscles that allow he or her to lead people into the presence of God is if there's space to not get it right and to learn because failure can be a beautiful thing, and John Maxwell writes about it failing forward, but it's like you can fail, but learn from your failure because that's how you grow. And it's like, and so I would say you know, success is giving space for failure. Yeah, like in many ways, like if you talk I mean, that's a different way to look at success, but success. Is giving it's because because here's the thing. I don't think anybody decided, well, I'm not ever coming back to church on the move because of the way he did that transition. It's like, it's like, no, no, no one did. It's just, it's like there has to be space. And it's like, and that's the thing. Like during the season, I've said, hey, you know what? We used to have 21 minutes of worship or 19. Now we've got 25 to 30.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Go. And some of our worship pastors were like, and leaders were like, I don't know what to do with 30 minutes. And I'm like, have fun figuring that out because you're going to figure that out, but you're going to grow because we're giving you the space. And so and I said, even if you just have, like you stop and say, we're just going to you just listen to what the Holy Spirit's saying over your life right now. We're going to stop singing for the next three or four minutes. I said, that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Um, no, it was okay here. I'm not saying it's okay with the gift. Yeah. What a gift. But it's like, I think, I think when you make room, I think success, there's so many different ways I could define success right now in my the season that I'm in. Making room for the Holy Spirit to move during worship is success for me right now.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Okay, so that's that's super deep. And you just said a few things that I could go in a whole podcast on about three different things you just said because it was so good. The the development piece, there's a lot of people, I'm sure, that are watching us that are going, like, hey, the Sunday bar is gotten so high via my my pastor, my executive power. We we want this experience to be dialed in.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Um, and but we don't have a pathway.

unknown 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

We don't have a place for the reps. We don't have a development low-stakes environment. Yeah. So what would you guys say to the high, you know, the high output experience stages that want a pipeline, they want a development path? How do we lean into making space for low-risk reps?

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Well, Andy, answer that, because you travel and do a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

That's and that's yeah, that's the question I get asked a lot is how do we get better and how do we how do we find more people? Yeah, how do we how do we develop a pipeline so that we're not having to go outside of our church to find musicians? We're raising them up. We're raising them up. Well, culture is number one. I mean, you've got to have a culture of what is worship? If you don't have a worship cultural statement for your church, you need one. Yeah. Because until you pull it apart, you don't know what pieces you have. What's important in worship? Is it joy? Is it excellence? Is it um the move of the Holy Spirit? Is it, you know, is it free form? Is it structure? You know, what are those things? Uh is it preaching the gospel? Yeah. You know, find those things first because all you're doing is putting band-aids on things that aren't going to heal.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:49

And if you're just, if you're just trying to get more people in and just get better at what you do, there's an old adage that says, uh, there are two ways to make something better, time and money. Right. And most churches don't have the money or won't spend the money or can't do it long term to make it, to make things better. What's the other option? What's time? And worship pastors, this is your job.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Right. This is your job is to find musicians to to uh pour into them and then give them opportunities. So how do you start that? Well, you start with a cultural, uh, a cultural assessment of who you are. Yeah. Start with that. And and that, I mean, that's gonna take some time, and that's okay. Um and then after that, now you've got to put some steps in place, which is you got to get the wrong people off the team and get the right people on the team that match your cultural environment and where you want to go culturally. And honestly, it's you got to play the long game. Uh, to me, it's it's about if you get the right people with the right culture on stage, then they attract the people who need to be with you. So that's the first step of building a pipeline is getting your culture right. Otherwise, you're just making the same mistake person after person after person.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah.

Crushing, Humility, And True Measures

SPEAKER_03 34:05

Now, opportunities, like I told uh I told uh the same uh worship pastor Micah, he used to be the the the youth worship pastor for our church, and his band was amazing. And they would rehearse a ton, but it's a lot of the same guys that are playing on the weekend.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

And I was like, first of all, let me just say this with all love and respect, your worship band's too good. Your youth worship team is too good. These kids don't care. They don't care if if everything is perfect and it sounds amazing. They're just glad to get together and sing these songs and have a great time. So let's graduate these people that you've got on your youth worship team up into maybe uh, and we they we opened an adult uh a young adult service, where now those people started to migrate into play for that young adult service. We started opening kids live music at kids environment. We started pushing the opportunity for uh live music in different environments where there's only tracks being played. Wow. You know, again, kids worship. My daughter leads uh at one of the leads kids worship at one of the belonging co campuses in Nashville. And the kids don't care. They just want to jump up and down and they want to sing and and stay engaged. And they want them to have something that they can repeat, right? It doesn't have to be awesome. Just get people in there and get them some experience. And and then what we started to do was just flood that youth band with teenagers. Get them in there. Now get them now. What are you doing? You're preaching culture first.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

Not necessarily music. You're preaching culture. This is who we are, this is what we do. And then that's how you just very slowly start to build that culture and move people around, start graduating them up. And and that's how you develop a pipeline. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

It's not easy, but no, it's not. And sometimes we have to create, like if the church you're in has a particular rhythm of meeting and a rhythm of ministries, then you have to find ways of like creating lab opportunities where risks, you know, reps can be low risk and and then they can be evaluated reps.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

And so I think at the internal at the young adult service, young adult service?

SPEAKER_00 36:14

It could be a choir ministry, it could be um a songwriter night, an internal worship night. I've I've watched Christ Fellowship do this for years, where uh they create uh they have a staff chapel that they have regularly. Yeah, and in that staff chapel, they're bringing in, you know, lots of different worship practitioners to lead the staff. It's a safe place that's building team and building. I think just being mindful of those spaces.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Creating go teams that go to, we created that um, you know, uh putting small teams of musicians together, go to homeless shelters and go to food centers and that we had relationship with that they were we were allowed to go in and set up a little acoustic band and have singers that you know could get some reps in front of people and do it because this is what they it's what they want, they just want to sing, yeah, you know, and they're not quite good enough to get on the main stage yet. Yeah, but it's a great place for them to go and get reps.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Well, and the thing too, it's like, you know, when you talk about just leading worship and being a part of the team and being good at your craft, it's like I love uh working on not just the craft, but also the character and the heart behind it. And it's like and and when you talk about you know, I I remember the story of so we have these Spanish artists here, it's four three brothers, and it's miel San Marcos, and they're from Guatemala, and their dad was a pastor. And so um, and they're huge. I mean, they're very famous like Spanish Christian artists, like they're amazing. And and the thing is is they said, Yeah, they say, when we were young, our dad used to say you can't sing on Sunday if you don't go to the park outside and sing about Jesus on Saturday. And so so they would set up their gear and sing in the park to just the public on Saturday. Wow. And that's the because I I what I realized is the dad was saying, I want your heart. I want your heart developed. Like I it this will help develop your skill, but it will also help develop your heart.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

That is so.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

And I think that, you know, it's it's just a fascinating thing. Um guys, this has been a great conversation. I mean, we could we could go. This is one of those that could just it it could be like it could be tagging into the next podcast, and then all of a sudden we would end up with a four-hour podcast on this because this is like this is something that like I I think we can shape this in a different way and even talk about some of this on another podcast.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Well, and I think this is the heart of the worship table. Yeah. Is not so much how do you do worship, but it's why. Why you know what what is success? Asking those questions. Like what keeps you in the game? Why should you stay in the game? Why why should you be passing down leadership to the next generation without bolting through the back door? Sure. Because you don't feel like you're you're useful anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

And these kind of questions, if there's like if you want to have deeper questions, like if you're engaging this podcast and you get into the worship table online community, like we're interacting in that space and we can kind of engage those conversations and connect you with other guys. We oh, you need to talk to this person because they've done this really, really well. Yeah. You know, and that's that's really what it's all about bringing that community together.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

Tell you when we've blown it, yeah, and what we did to correct it and how it shaped us and how we move forward from that.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

You know, there's tell you where where we're we are still blowing it. Yeah. Not when we blew it, but we're gonna be able to do it. Well, speak for yourself, guys. Yeah, oh I know, okay, okay. You know. Perfect. I know you're not. God bless, guys. This has been fun.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

It's been fun, yeah.

unknown 39:49

Awesome.